Insights In Sound 216 – A Conversation with Synthesist/Composer Anthony Marinelli – S22 E6

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Customhouse. I’m here with Anthony Marinelli. We are in his
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modest home studio. One would assume that you might be a little bit involved in the world of synthesis.
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Yes, I’ve been in the world of synthesis for decades and these are the synths
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that I, you know, I used. They’ve expanded since, but a lot of them they go back to my first, second, third,
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fourth synth. So, a lot of that was really in the, shall we say, the developmental stages
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of synthesis. A lot of what we had to do with these synths was kind of think for
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them as opposed to pre-programmed presets and whatnot like we have now.
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Yeah. You didn’t even really have patches in the sense that we know them now because
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patches were things that you created and were sort of transitory, right? I mean, how difficult was it to get the same
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patch twice? I didn’t want the same. I mean, I still work that way. I don’t save any sounds.
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I mean, I love that nothing. Very few things have MIDI. I think I have two synths that have MIDI.
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And really, yeah, I don’t save anything. I just play it to tape. Uhhuh. So to speak, you know, it’s a hard drive
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now, right? But it’s basically the same workflow because I’m just trying to get to the music and that’s that’s just the flow
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that I’m I’m in. You know, it it works for me and I like changing the sound. Like I change the sound throughout the
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whole performance anyway. I love that. Uhhuh. Because the music changes. Yeah. you know, just like I never could
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get my hands around like a clarinetist doesn’t just use the same decay
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B on every note and the syn the ADSR is sitting there the same time on every note. I don’t I
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don’t want that. The music doesn’t do that. So, I’m always changing it to me. That’s synthesis is playing this. I
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enjoy playing. Let me put it that way. Organically speaking. Yeah. So, I got plenty of stuff to do and when I’m done, I don’t want to save
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anything. I just want to leave. I want to go go, you know, like like jazz guys.
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You do the session and then you go out and eat. Well, you’re done. Now, let me ask you a little bit about your own background. Are you classically
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trained or what? So, did you come up as a piano player or Yeah. I mean, I I studied piano with a
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piano teacher, but he could see right away I would prefer to play sports. Uhhuh. And he kept me there by having me wash
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windows and he was playing me synth music. Like I started out with switched
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on Boach and just then he found that I liked like Billy Preston and I saw that album cover he’s got has
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it go around in circles album. Yeah. Um Ain’t Got nothing and he transcribed
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some of those for me the piano part. So I was learning like Billy Preston in between the classical stuff and then for
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the recital I didn’t practice enough and I would forget the the piece. So, I improvised my way out. And when I
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thought he was going to be mad at me, he ended up saying, “You’re special. Go
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with it. I’m not going to force you to be This is a really great teacher, right? Clearly, I’m not going to force you to be
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something you’re not.” And I think you not being something like all my other students who are really
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some really good students he had. Um, maybe that’s worth, you know. So he went with it and he introduced me to
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another kid there that had a an organ. So I got my into like playing electronic
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stuff. Uhhuh. And that’s kind of what got me into it. And then I just, you know, classical
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stuff was my that was my thing. And then I reconnected with him after playing in a bunch of bands with organs and I
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didn’t have any synths. And we put together a group where we just played classical music on synths.
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And we got a hold of a bunch of CS80s from this music store owned by David Label. And
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so we transcribed Beethoven’s eighth symphony for six CS80s. I still have the transcriptions and we started playing it
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live like six. We broke it down by upper strings, lower strings, woodwinds, brass, percussion, and effects. So those
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were the six parts. So it was like we knew what we were doing. We I knew how to like do good solid arranging and
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orchestration was just block orchestration. It worked for Beethoven, right? It was perfect because we didn’t have a lot of effects
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to do and it was all about playing and getting the phrasing and the classical phrasing, the articulation, the short,
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the long, using volume pedals. And we performed it on the radio on KFAC, the classical
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station, live Sunday afternoon concerts in the middle of all these classical chamber
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musicians not liking it or not knowing what it was. That’s culture shock. Yeah. But sure
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enough, someone from one of the studios heard it and said,”I want that sound for the movie Blue Thunder.” And that’s like
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opened it up and I was able to just get a Sinclair and jump right in. It was
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like I was 20 years old and just um bitten by the bug. It just one thing led to the other. But
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it all happened just from me being a little different, liking synths and just liking playing. I like playing, you
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know. So that was it. Well, and the other thing that strikes me here is that um you know, I’ve always felt that there
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are there’s sort of a it’s not black and white, but there’s a there’s a sort of a
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spectrum of people who are highly intuitive musicians who, let’s say, don’t even read at all, but play
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completely by ear. And then there on the other side of that is are musicians who if you take the sheet music away, they
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lose the road map completely and they can’t improvise. And you seem to be much more toward even though you obviously
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have the classical training, you’re much more toward the intuitive uh playing by ear sort of mentality.
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I know it’s weird. Yeah. And I’m in the middle of it. I’m much more toward the the playing by ear. I’m I’m the uh epitome of the joke
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about how you get a a a bass player to slow down, you know, by putting sheet music in front of him, [laughter] you know. Um but but and so I I understand
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that but I you know I’ve always been I’ve always marveled at that and I you know I I in fact I I kind of envy the
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people who can live in both those worlds. But um you know it it strikes me
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as though part of the part of what really is a a defining factor for you is the fact that even though you can read
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what uh what a friend of mine refers to as the fly [ __ ] on the page, you know, you can also really interpret that the
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articulation, the emotion, all of that stuff behind it because I think that’s the key to great making great music is
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understanding the emotion. Yeah. I mean for me like I studied the composers and the great composers
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composed through improvisation many of them right starting with Bach um and then they wrote it down.
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Well yeah Mozart was an improviser like unmatched and Beethoven was incredible improviser list I mean all these
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composers that wrote for orchestra where they wrote all the the notes but there’s something about you know
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when you just go in the flow and you find and you surprise yourself. Yeah.
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You know, and the unexpected happens. There’s there’s stuff in there that you
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you gravitate towards and I think the listeners hear it, you know, it comes across.
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Yeah. So, it’s not just about following a formula like a bach corral, you know, it’s like no parallel fifths and, you
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know, it’s like, right, it’ll sound kind of like that, but you develop a personality. I think I I studied Joe Zol and he he wrote a
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lot of stuff through improvising. That’s another one. And he would sit there and transcribe his improvisations. That’s like crazy,
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you know. Well, and I think that’s part of it, too, is that the the act of transcription, the act of writing out
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the music should be in theory at least in an ideal world should be just the documentation of the inspiration that
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has come through Yeah. your brain, so to speak, you know. Yeah, I totally agree. Like analyze it
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after. Yeah. Whatever you’re doing. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that even applies to what we do now with recording
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stuff, you I mean, if you’re if you’re you know, I’ve always believed that the inspiration
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it comes through us, not necessarily from us, you know. I think a lot of the um a lot of the great ideas that we get,
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you know, we we kind of look at later on and go, “Wow, did I do that?” You know? Yeah. And and so I think a lot of that is the
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stuff that’s kind of what would you say going on under the hood, you know? and then documenting
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that whether you document it with notes on paper or whether you document it
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on the computer or back in the old days on tape whatever it’s it’s that
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performance and that inspiration that we’re really going for. I totally agree even and it applies to everything
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really. Every everything like a friendship, a marriage, playing on sports teams. You’re you’re not in an
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analytical mind when you’re in the process of it. You’re in it. Exactly. You’re in the creative process. Whatever that And
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you’re right. Absolutely. Whatever that pre- creative process may be, you’re so deep into it that you’re not hopefully
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you’re not even thinking about it’s so completely rightrained that you’re not really analyzing what
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you’re doing. Yeah. And like you said, like something’s flowing through you and you just don’t want too much in the way. Yeah.
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And you can talk like in a relationship, you can talk about it afterwards. That’s really good. And music, look at it and look what you did and
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then learn something. Go, “Oh, I see a pattern. I want to repeat that next time.” Yeah. And you can learn from yourself through
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this like what seems like wandering, but then you like discover and there’s such a joy in it. Like you
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never get I never get tired of it because the the thing is like I look for as soon as I’m done, I want
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to go through it again. Yeah, even though it’s like I wonder if I’ll ever write anything good again, but you know, you it’s it’s an act of
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faith. I think a lot of times improvising that you’re just going to go go there and um you know, there could
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be a car accident. You know, it’s I I actually I I love that phrase, an act of faith because
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that’s really what the whole creative process is about. I was once chatting with um this wonderful creative artist
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named Brenda Russell. I’m sure you’re familiar with her course. Yeah. And Brenda said something that really hit
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home with me. She said, “You know, I wrote my first song at the age of 14.” And she said, “I cried like a baby
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afterward because I thought I may never do this again.” You know, and I think that’s part of it is like, you know,
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because we really don’t know where it’s coming from. We’re almost always afraid of like, you know, did I just do that,
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you know? Yeah. I think that’s how it feels. But I
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also am a big proponent in preparation because if you’re prepared, then you’re
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going to allow yourself to know what’s going on a little bit like when something comes your way and what to let
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go of and and it’s all in the moment and you’re not analyzing it. Yeah. But, you know, hitting a baseball
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or whatever, you know, to be prepared and then, you know, you’ll just say like, I don’t know, I hit that thing. But you were prepared.
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And that’s the perfect analogy, too, because in the same way that, you know, that preparation, which is entirely
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leftrained, that preparation, whether it’s hitting a hundred baseballs until you’ve got the swing right, or whether
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it’s playing notes until you know before you put your finger down on the key what that note is going to be and sound like.
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Yeah. You know, it’s all it’s this preparation so that by the time you’ve immersed yourself in that moment,
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right, it’s so intuitive that you allow that those juices to flow
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so you know, you know, and there’s like what rarely gets discussed with synthesizers is fingering
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because most synths have keyboards, right? Right. Right. But when you’re improvising, like you
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you can’t just be thinking of the fingering, but your hands kind of have to have a sense of what to do in that
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instance. Yeah. And this is where it gets so interesting in music because you can you can work on
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that and then when you get in those moments, you go, “Wow, I was glad I was I was prepared.” Like running sprints or
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something. If you don’t practice it, you’re gassed. You can’t even do 100 meters.
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Right. Right. So it’s like the same thing with when you’re improvising. If you’re practicing your scales or practicing your fingering
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or practicing like I say moving stuff on the panel those those comes more innately and it’s
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like you can do it in an instant without thinking about it. I remember watching one time uh George
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Benson playing and singing at the same time that he was playing the guitar and knowing what he
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was going to play and singing it simultaneously. You know, same kind of thing. I mean, just you have this
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intuitive sense of what it’s going to sound like, even though it’ll still surprise you, but it’ll surprise you on
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a different level because you you know the mechanics, you know them so intuitively that you’re not even
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thinking about them. So, you know, like cuz I just it’s nothing like George Venson because he’s
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probably one of the best ever at that scat playing, you know? Yeah. But like when you’re using a
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vocoder and you just made me think about it like I don’t even know what comes first.
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Am I singing it first or am I playing it and then matching the scene? I don’t even think about it too much or maybe they take turns.
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I think they kind of interplay with each other. But yeah, your point is is well taken. You know, it’s like we we’re not
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really thinking about it and that’s probably what allows us to let go,
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you know. So you came up with that sort of intuitive sense of music even when you were being quote unquote classically
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trained. Yeah. I was like I would call it super trained. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Like I went through the conservatory at USC, piano major,
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composition major. I studied conducting. Like I’ve conducted all my many of my film scores I conducted. I’m good. I can
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write to full score, transpose. I mean I I’m you know I know I I did all that but
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at the same time I didn’t lose that other path was which was just you know
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leave that here. That’s that’s my preparation. Uhhuh. And then I go to whatever light.
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[laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s No, you’re absolutely right. I I love that. I love that attitude towards it
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because I I think that is what keeps us open to that whatever that you know uh
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there’s that whole theory of the creative unconscious you know that those ideas are kind of floating out there in
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the ether and we’re just the receptacles for them the interpreters of them you know
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I think so Einstein talks about that a lot disciplines talk about that oh absolutely
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they don’t think they’re like walking around with theorems and no need some time to like get it out, you know?
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Yeah, we’re blessed in being creative individuals, but in doing so, we’re just
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channeling something. And I think that’s one of the most I I think to me that’s
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one of the big steps in becoming a true creative person is being able to let go
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of that quote unquote ego. you know, even though there’s a hell of a lot of ego involved in all of this, but at the
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same time, being able to know when to sort of sublimate it and say, “Okay, well, you know, I’m going to just let
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this stuff flow through me.” For sure. Yeah. Yeah. You won’t miss out on on good ideas because they’re not yours, you
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know, like Right. Right. Well, and you know, that that’s always cracked me up, too, because, you know, when Brenda said that, I I thought to myself, you know,
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if you’re really worried about this being the last great idea you have, you might as well just throw it in now. You
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know, I mean, we we’re we are going back to what you said about having faith.
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You know, we have faith that we’re going to sit down again tomorrow and come up with something else that’s new.
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You know, at least I I sure hope so. You know, that’s part of the joy, isn’t
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it? I think it is. Yeah. Because it allows
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for discovery and that’s fun. Yeah. You know? Yeah. You just keep going. I mean, people dig
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holes on these archaeological digs for like years with that.
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Yeah. The discovery is way more elusive than for us. Right. Right.
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Right. It doesn’t take us that long. Yeah. Well, we hope not. you know, although, you know, I mean, I think to
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that point, you know, I think everything we’re doing today is part of a hole that
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we started digging years and years ago, you know, because we’re again, we’re, you know, I think we’re kind of going
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down a going down into a labyrinth, into another labyrinth, into a you know, I mean, that’s that’s how we
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create everything, isn’t it? I think like yeah I can I can see that like if you compared it to like phrases like you
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sit down and you come up with something and that’s like a small phrase and then there’s a more overarching and then there’s a whole section you know if I’m
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looking at a musical score and then there’s the whole movement and then there’s the whole work. So if you looked at your life like you said there’s these
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things. So you you you you want to get somewhere, right? And I think it’s important to finish things, finish
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phrases. They don’t even have to be complete things. They’re not like your voice yet. You know, who you are, what
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your musical voices, and then you start to see it. The more you do it, the more you practice
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like practicing religion or anything like these things require a pra like habits.
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Yeah. It’s it’s a chapter. Yeah. Yeah. And it, you know, maybe you’re finished with this, but it’s still going to be a
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part of a bigger section that’s coming, you know, Yeah. I feel it. So, in that sense, like
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the Buddhist monk, they don’t just they do it like a habit. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and then then there’s
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discovery that happens along the way and then over a longer period of time, like we said earlier, you look back on it and
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then you could connect dots. Yeah. And then you see like where did I go somewhere and how can I go somewhere
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better, you know? And then in their case, sometimes the less you do is the better. Which is kind of that applies to music
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though too, right? Well, you know, it’s also I mean sort of tangental to that. A lot of the artists
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that I work with, especially younger artists, um they’re always trying to sort of compare themselves to other
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artists, you know, and well, I’m not nearly as good a guitar player as so and so or whatever. And one of the things
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that I always try and tell them is the only person you’re in competition with is yourself yesterday. And you know what
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you’re talking about there, the whole idea of building this, you know, looking back at where you were a year ago or 5
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years ago or even yesterday, you know, those kind of progressions I think gives
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you that perspective that you’re talking about like, you know, what I was doing a year ago or even, you know, I mean, I
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just recently started digging through some stuff that I had written 30 years ago, you know, old uh old demos that I
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did because, you know, I discovered recently that, you know, now you can do stem separation and unmix some of your
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stuff. And I’ve got, you know, like all of us, I’ve got tracks that I recorded in the 80s with horrible drum machines
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that I no longer want to hear, you know. So now I can listen to that and think, “Oh, that was actually a pretty good
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song, you know. I can take that now and I can just distill the essence of it, get rid of the Elicis drum machine or
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whatever else was on it and do something else with it, you know. I and I think that again is it’s part of just taking
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those ideas and saying, you know, I was finished with it, but now it can be a
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chapter for something else. Yeah, I could totally relate to all that. Even you compare yourself to
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someone else, you know, and it’s okay if you do. It’s hard not to sometimes, but sure, you got to like my piano teacher said,
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you know, you he just liked how me being me Uhhuh. made him feel. And so he encouraged
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that. And so because I compare myself to the other kids, I’m like, I suck. I mean, these guys have perfect pitch and
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they remember all the pieces and they’re motivated to practice, you know, and they just
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they just get that, right? and and and I don’t realize that there could be until I practiced it and
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started finding out that I could do something. Well, I guess I had a musiccologist for years and years
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whenever I’d write uh some films, but pretty much every ad that I ever wrote.
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Mhm. It would go through a musiccologist and he used to tell me, “Nobody could ever
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be you better than you.” And it’s kind of what you’re saying like you tell your students,
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you know, he said, “Well, because I’m like, how am I how am I going to get away from this temp music? It’s like all in my head and I know they’re not gonna
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like anything except this temp.” And he just it just kept pounding that into my head,
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you know. So, I think you have a lot more chance of enjoying experience when
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you can just relax into that. And, you know, you compare yourself along the way as motivation,
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sure, but you’re not going to be them. you know, like there’s room for them. Let them be them. It’s kind of a process to
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let other people be them, too. Oh, absolutely. And and you know, the motivation part and the inspiration part
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that you’re talking about, you know, I mean, I’m a bass player. I absolutely
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loved learning old Mottown stuff, learning James Jamerson lines, you know, that kind of stuff. Not because I wanted
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to be James Jamerson, because I wanted to learn that and learn what this wonderful style that he was. I mean, you
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know, listen to his bass parts. They’re a work of art in themselves, you know, and then to take that and integrate that
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into my own style, but it’s still going to be me. It’s not going to be James, you know. Well, when you said that, you went like
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this. So, it made me think because you [laughter] wanted to you wanted to feel it, right? Exactly. There’s something about that, too.
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There really is. You want to like cuz when you heard it, it there was a feeling. Yes.
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In you. Yes. And then when you examine it like in the then you start to get away a little bit from the analytical
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and you just because when you capture the feeling from things those experiences are way easier to remember
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and follow through with into integrating into you right your style. Yeah,
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absolutely. And then you know the other aspect of it which I think is really important in terms of your work is
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you’ve worked with a lot of really great musicians and in doing so I feel that
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everybody we work with, everybody we collaborate with brings something to the table which then impacts our own
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creative style. You worked on the Michael Jackson stuff. You know, obviously Quincy Jones must have been a
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tremendous influence with what he brought to the table and how that pushed you, right? Well, that’s that was his style was
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getting the best out of everybody. Yeah. Yeah. In the room. I mean, that experience was like a lot
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of the best people coming together and because there was a the best person for
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each thing like the songwriter, there was even like a lyricist sometimes, you know, the Bergman’s would
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come in. Uhhuh. and you know Allan Marilyn Bergman I mean just like the amazing lyricist would just walk in
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to be contributing [clears throat] and arranger
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I was just programming then somebody playing rhythm section just like
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everything specialist you know so there’s something to be said for working like that now you have
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opportunity to work where you’re everything uh yeah and that that brings out that brings out
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something else Sure. Sure. And all of it really kind of contributes to the the
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that synergistic thing, the sum of the parts, right? I mean, you’re you’re bringing in all of these other outside
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influences and they’re building on your own creative process. Yeah, they are. For me, I’ve never been
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able to or I just haven’t done it enough, but get involved in the recording process. So, I don’t sit in
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front of a DAW ever. I always have an engineer or even if it’s a DOS, somebody that’s just running that so I can just
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focus on Yeah. the music. I prefer that as well because again, those are left and right
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brain disciplines. And if you’re too deep into one, you’re pulling yourself away from the other, I think.
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Well, yeah. And also, I don’t want to look at it because my I want my mind because it’s like all gritted.
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Yeah. And I don’t think of music as a grid. I think of music as like I was saying like a room of light or I mean I don’t know I
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just said that earlier but there’s no like chopped up time space in it right
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and then you’re looking at this thing and you know you’re like watching TV kind of all day and it just it it mess
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because I my music ideas are kind of visual you know and so it just takes me it
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messes with my brain or something I don’t know so I never was able to get that translation you know into into it
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and a lot of a lot of stuff Today they got screens and I just kind of prefer keys and buttons and knobs whenever
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possible. You think in colors? Not like a syn sesthesia type of thing.
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But musically speaking, images, shapes. Yeah. Yeah. More sometimes
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sometimes colors, but I try not to allow like get into even
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what I’m thinking, you know? Just that’s kind of the best I think. You know, it’s like don’t even try to label
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it really. Yeah. Yeah. That’s just what works for me. But that so, you know, very different extreme
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differences from like the Quincy way of doing it cuz it was a very personal thing. Like
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no, no one ever hugged me before when I just showed up at a session. That’s like the first thing you get. It
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just feels like he’s trying to get a lot of things in the room. Like a
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spirit of love, a spirit of you can be free to do your thing here. I want you
26:01
to. Uhhuh. you know, I want you to contribute. Yeah. Not like here’s what I want and sit you
26:06
down and like a director sometimes, you know, this is the scene and this is the motivation and
26:12
right, they’re all different. And I think um for me a long career has been about
26:19
assessing these situations and finding my voice in there, not
26:24
sublimating it. Right. Right. You know, but actually finding it within there. Yeah. and bringing what’s what’s unique
26:31
to you to the equation, right? 100%. Because it’s collaborative. Even if I’m an accompanist and I’m playing
26:38
piano and there’s a singer, I don’t just do what I want to do, right? It’s music. You’re a bass player. You
26:44
don’t ignore the drummer. Exactly. You get beat up. Yeah. And that’s what I really love
26:51
about what I would call the art of orchestration. I’ve worked with a number of singer songwriters who will come to
26:57
me with just a song and I’ll say to them, don’t you know, don’t open up or something like that and give me a whole
27:04
arrangement. Don’t give me your demo. Just come to me, sing me the song, play maybe play guitar or piano with it, you
27:10
know, and that’s it. Because that way my brain is free to start sprinkling in the
27:16
orchestrations. And if I have other artists working with me, if there’s a great drummer or percussionist working
27:22
with me, that person will then sprinkle in their ideas, you know, and I think there’s this wonderful wonderful
27:28
interplay between the artists if you if you allow that to happen, I think. So, yeah. Conversation starts
27:35
to emerge and then you get ideas Yeah. that aren’t just yours. Like you’re saying about ego, you know, and
27:40
somebody’s good idea, you can play off of it like they’ll play a rhythm and go, I’ll double that. That’s a good idea. Yeah. doesn’t mean like it’s not your
27:47
idea. You’re going to take it and do something with it that musician isn’t going to do,
27:52
right? And then usually when you mirror somebody, they like it. Yeah. And so then you and then that mounts to something else
27:59
and you know there’s this again this synergy that happens. This is where Quincy was such a master because
28:04
he would those were building blocks so that the room was always positive filled
28:10
with energy and the musicians could feel that and it just so conducive for music.
28:16
Yeah. You know, it wasn’t like because I’ve been in there’s other famous producers I’ve
28:21
worked with that are mean. I’ve I’ve I’ve worked with other really famous
28:27
ones. I’ve worked with a few of those too. Yeah. Yeah. So, you just get a different
28:33
They’re all They’re all They all have a different vibe, you know. I mean, I’ve worked with uh I I’ve been lucky enough
28:38
to be behind Phil Raone and watch him, you know, another person who was great at bringing that energy out, you know.
28:45
Um Peter Asher is another one who I just think is brilliant in doing that. Don W,
28:50
you know, but yeah, there are some who we won’t name who are just, you know, kind of slave drivers more than anything
28:56
else. And I think I understand the motivation there, you know, I
29:01
understand the idea that I’ve got it all in my head already and this is what I want, you know, but I think in a certain
29:07
sense that kind of closes you off to a lot of the possibilities of what could be,
29:14
you know, and maybe there’s a fear there of letting it get out of control. I don’t know.
29:19
Well, it’s their thing and I adapt to it, you know. I I feel it pretty quickly,
29:24
you know, and and that’s, you know, that’s it’s your role and sometimes it goes beyond your role as the the part in the
29:33
music, right? Because there’s also your part in life that’s
29:38
way more important than than even your your role in the music because you won’t if if that’s not jing
29:46
then you won’t even be there next time. Exactly. And Yeah. And I think that is again part of just feeling secure with
29:53
not only your own abilities but the trusting in the in the process. I think
29:58
trusting in the process is so important you know for sure. Clearly you you came up with that
30:04
ability which obviously was a big influence for you. It was a blessing like crazy. Yeah.
30:11
Cuz I know I’m going to learn something. I know I’m going to learn something hanging here with you. I mean, I just feel like there’s so much out there and
30:18
like you said, it’s all just floating around out there and it’s just if you’re if you’re in tune with recognizing it.
30:24
Yeah. Then then that’s all it really takes. Which I think [clears throat] is probably, you know, a lot of times that’s the real challenge is is being
30:31
able to recognize it and being able to let go and say, “Yeah, I’m going to learn something from everyone.”
30:37
Yeah. You know, it’s Yeah. And you could have an off day, but that doesn’t mean it’s not like
30:42
you’ll have an on day again, you know? forever. Exactly. Well, you better hope so, you know.
30:48
Well, it’s that it’s the faith that you know that that you will. Yeah. And the experience that you’ve seen that
30:55
you do, you know, it’s like uh someone with anxiety, it’s like it will pass.
31:01
Yeah. And that’s, you know, there’s a lot of great therapies that help us with stuff like that. I’ve worked with a
31:07
number of really really great uh music and artistic focused therapists, you
31:13
know, and I’ve done some different alternative therapies that I feel are really helpful for people in terms of
31:19
bringing out bringing out that creative process, bringing out that faith in the creative process, being able to let go
31:27
of a lot of that anxiety. I think that’s important. I think it’s not always easy for an artist. Well, yeah. You gota the
31:34
the first mistake, [laughter] you got to get past that one. Yeah. And then, you know, then after you’ve
31:40
made a million of them, then you get the next million to go. [laughter]
31:45
You do. There were famous athletes that would say that, you know, like for every
31:50
shot, you know, how did you make that shot? And you go, well, you didn’t see all the ones I missed
31:55
right in the gym. Right. Exactly. All the ones you you miss. And you still
32:00
have to have that belief or or the the next ones aren’t going to go down. And Right. And that’s the same thing like
32:06
all those hard drives full of ideas we have that didn’t actually gel. You know, they were on the way to creating
32:12
something else. I know. And then I keep saving them all and I’m never going to, you know, [laughter]
32:18
it’s just like the good ones I usually just do when it’s a song and it’s finished and I finish it and then I got
32:23
[clears throat] all these ideas I think I got to keep track of. Yeah. Yeah. And half of them will end up on a drive somewhere. And you know, 20
32:30
years later, you might find them. You know, maybe one day you hear one piece of it. Yeah.
32:35
Well, that was the good part. Yeah. Oh, you know, that wasn’t so bad after all. You know, that kind of thing.
32:40
Yeah. So, talk to me about doing soundtracks for movies and commercials
32:46
and things like that. That’s a totally different discipline, right? Composing. Yeah. How did that how did that evolve
32:52
out of what you were doing? Okay. I mean, I studied composition, you know, and I was writing songs like
32:59
in bands and stuff. So, I was I was doing it, but I wasn’t doing it like on that kind
33:05
of a scale with with so many people scrutinizing it like layers.
33:12
Uhhuh. But it was I guess after I did that first film,
33:20
but pe people heard that the live performances on synthesizer. Mh. That was Blue Thunder and Arthur B.
33:26
Rubenstein was the composer. So I really learned like watching him. Wow. From the best.
33:31
Yeah. I mean I I interacted a lot like he he relied on Brian Banks and I we
33:37
were partners doing this stuff because we could interpret cl we knew classical music and we could interpret what he was
33:44
doing. So we would take his six line sketches and and orchestrate them and and slightly change the arrangement if
33:50
we needed to. Uhhuh. and created these tracks that then the orchestra was going to play to.
33:56
Okay. So, I was inside somebody’s score for a movie that was successful.
34:01
So, I I was able to get like mentored, which was what happened in the Renaissance.
34:07
Mhm. We don’t have that now. Yeah. You can go to school, but it’s not the same thing when you’re in in a meat
34:13
grinder, like, you know, with a a studio and a director. Yeah. And then the reality of a big orchestra
34:19
playing your stuff and it’s going to you’re going to hear it. It’s like the musicians let you know right away if it’s good.
34:24
Yeah. Right. Cuz they don’t play it right. You know, there’s just a lot of things that I became aware of really fast.
34:31
I had to learn like frame clicks, which isn’t beats per minute, and I screwed that up,
34:37
you know, like an 18 frame click is not 180 beats. It’s like 180, but I thought
34:42
it was like 180 beats per minute. Oh. So, I prepped tracks and it’s like, whoa, almost got you’ll never work
34:49
again. [laughter] speech. So, you know, it was Trial by Fire. And then I then I did War Games with the
34:56
same director and the same composer. And he was tough, man. Arthur was really tough on me. Decades later at a at a
35:03
Dodgers Mets game, he he I asked him, “Why are you so rough on me? You’re so nice.” But he was really like I was in
35:11
tears sometimes. And he goes, “I just want to get the best out of you.” And it was just his New York old school way.
35:17
Yeah. Tough love. Mhm. and it worked you know in that case. So after doing a
35:23
few movies with him then you know and and then I did movies with other pretty famous people Jack Nichi and I I learned
35:30
their styles and it just got to the point where um like my biggest break I
35:36
did an animation film because I could do like orchestral simulation uh on the uh Sinclair
35:44
and then Quincy Jones when he did Color Purple asked me to do all of the for for
35:49
Spielberg. I got to work with Spielberg and Quincy at the same time. Wow. Doing orchestral simulations, but from
35:56
Hollywood’s top like 50 orchestrators. Uhhuh.
36:01
That went all the way back to the golden age, you know, Jack Hayes, I mean, just like everybody that you could name. And
36:07
so I learned all of their orchestrating styles by watching them. So I would have like
36:12
four or five different composers arrange and orchestrate the same theme for the same queue.
36:18
Talk about a school. what school could even offer you. Right. Exactly. Not just with the teachers point of view
36:24
on it, but like those guys and I’m playing it, getting it under my fingers and go, “Oh, that guy did something cool.
36:31
What What does Jorge, you know, what does this guy do? Kalendrelli, you know, all the all these
36:36
guys, Jeremy Love.” It was just one after the other that I had heard all their stuff. So I learned through that
36:41
and then I guess Young Guns came to my my way because James her had written the score
36:48
and it was an orchestral score and Joe Roth just came to me. He was head of the
36:53
studio at Fox. Can you pull this off? Can you do a new score in nine days? We
36:58
wanted synth. We want like what you do like. And of course you said yes. Of course I said yes. But I was working
37:03
with Georgio Maroter on Over the Top and I had to work nights and I had nine
37:09
days to do Young Guns and I had 103°ree fever. I was sick but I still said yes
37:16
and I still pushed through it and I I thought it sucked when I did but turns out it the soundtrack just got
37:21
re-released on vinyl like last year and wasn’t so bad after all. No, people liked it. It was the first
37:27
western that was electronic. And then later, same thing with Standby Me. Joel Roth again, he changed the name. The
37:34
movie was The Body. It was a Stephen King movie called The Body. And then he bought the song Standby Me and said, “I want to throw the score out. I want to
37:41
have it be called Stand by Me, and I want it all based on the song.” And we were all done. It was Jack’s score. I
37:47
had performed it all um with Brian Banks. Uhhuh. And then Joel Roth came in and said,
37:54
“Can you just Jack can’t he can’t stay on like we want him to, but he’s got another movie. Can you just in a few
38:00
days make it sound like standby me? Wow. And so I did and then I people could see
38:05
I was like firemen. Uhhuh. So I get a call on a Sunday from
38:10
John Hughes. Can you come down? I heard you can like do a queue like instant Q
38:17
that sounds like orchestra. And I’m like okay I’ll meet [laughter] with you. So I cancelled my Sunday dinner with my
38:23
family. Went down to the studio with John sitting next to me. I did the scene in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles with
38:29
John Candy. Uh, yeah. Driving the car with Steve Martin
38:35
sleeping. Uhhuh. And it was like crazy like action sequence, cars swerving and all this
38:41
stuff. And I did it all in front of him. And he’s going, “Can you do this here? Can you do this here?” And he was hooked. He was like, “What composer is
38:47
going to I just met him. He’s sitting right here.” And I just created a queue in front of him and they used it. Iron
38:54
Newborn was the composer. So then I went on I did 12 minutes of ch like just
38:59
certain cues he wanted different but he didn’t he wanted it to still sound like orchestra. So I had to match the IRA
39:04
Newborn sound that was real orchestra. Mhm. And come up with sort of my voice but still kind of give it it couldn’t sound
39:11
like some new thing. So I did that and then people could see that I could I could do stuff and then
39:17
not only do stuff but do stuff impromptu. Yeah. Yeah. And I was working with Giorgio and there was Thriller was out
39:23
there and Giorgio I was like his arranger and he would give me the the themes based on his songs on a cassette
39:29
and then I would take them and turn them into cues. Yeah. Because he didn’t want to write the cues as much. So he would write the songs.
39:35
Yeah. And he would come in every day and listen to what I did, you know, and then I’ve talked to a number of people who have worked with Giorgio and that seems
39:41
to be part of his emmo is just kind of like, you know, just make it happen, you know?
39:46
Yeah. He lets you do it, but I mean it’s if Giorgio’s not there, it just doesn’t sound good. It doesn’t
39:53
[laughter] I’m telling you he knows. He’s like Quincy. Yeah. Great producer. Like I learned maybe the
40:00
most from him because I spent eight years like going on and off doing like all kinds of stuff with Georgia. We did
40:07
the Olympics opening ceremonies. We did the World Cup opening ceremonies. We did massive live events. We did
40:14
all kinds of stuff. and artists, you know, songs, scores, all kinds of different whatever he was
40:21
up to. And but but all of that again goes back to that whole recurring theme here of
40:26
just being able to let go and trust the process, you know. Yeah. I’ve always felt that that’s really in certain ways
40:33
key to being a quote unquote successful creative is being able to just let go
40:40
and say, “Okay, I’m just going to let it flow.” you know, and and we don’t always, as you say, you know, I mean,
40:46
there’s plenty of times it’s a swing and a miss, you know, but that’s part of it,
40:51
too, because that mean that gets you one closer to the hit, right? Perfectly said.
40:57
Now, I know I know not to do that. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And just just be there. Be there
41:03
now. Mhm. I don’t know what’s going to happen. It’s very zen. Well, yeah, it is very zen. But they
41:08
can, you know, they can always kick you out. I can always quit. There’s a lot of jobs I could do. I don’t I just like
41:14
look at like worst case scenarios and they’re all they’re all fine. Yeah. Yeah.
41:20
You know, well, you know, it’s interesting. Um I um I was speaking recently with a friend
41:26
who does um assisted psychedelic therapy.
41:31
And one of the things that he mentioned that I thought was really interesting is that you know there’s this process in
41:38
doing this therapy where uh there’s a complete loss of ego and there is a
41:45
feeling of oh my god what if I die you know there there’s this fear of going
41:52
off the deep end so to speak and the philosophy that a lot of the great
41:58
therapists espouse is just dig into it, whatever it is, accept
42:04
it and embrace it as part of the journey. And the truth of the matter is
42:10
no, you don’t die. But by embracing it, by just taking it all in and saying,
42:15
“Whatever happens, I’m okay with it.” There’s there’s an immediate letting go
42:22
that I think is so constructive in its destructiveness.
42:28
And I think that’s a that again is part of that whole creative flow, you know, just being able to say wherever this
42:35
goes, I’m going to be okay with it. Yeah. Well, that’s that’s at a different
42:40
level. That’s one that I can’t really speak to, but I Well, it’s a different level, but but
42:46
the parallels are there, you know, the parallels of being able to let go of that ego. And I think that’s so that’s
42:53
so much part of the challenge for a lot of artists is letting go of that. Yeah. Well, you’re you’re expanding it to like
43:00
you’re you’re saying that ego of wanting to live. Yeah. That’s really that’s why I say
43:06
it’s like at another level. Well, and it definitely is, but at the same time, you know, there’s this beauty
43:12
in the whole thing. And and yes, I expanded to that to say, you know, yes, the stakes can be lower or higher. And
43:20
you know, when it comes down to it, I mean, letting go in the creative process is nowhere near as scary as letting it
43:27
go to say, “I want to live.” Absolutely. But there’s this
43:32
there’s this acceptance of, you know, it’s never going to be as bad as you think it is. You know, it’s never going
43:38
to be all of those fears that we anticipate, you know, anxiety. It’s
43:44
always this fear of what might happen. And the truth of the matter is just being able to let go of that anxiety.
43:51
Just acknowledge the fact that we can’t predict what’s going to happen anyway. So just learning to let go and say
43:57
whatever happens I’m going to respond to it as it happens. There’s a beauty in
44:02
that. That takes my breath away thinking. See, there’s always been something in the back of my head. Have you ever seen
44:08
Saving Private Ryan? Yeah. So, you know that beginning of that movie, there’s like basically a dumpster on the ocean and it’s 4 in the
44:16
morning, the sun’s not out yet, it’s freezing. Yeah. They’re all throwing up because the
44:21
thing is going like this and they’re going to throw down the door and they’re going to just run out. They got to go through like 100 meters of freezing
44:28
ocean and there’s, you know, German soldiers shooting at them that are
44:34
behind bunkers and they’re just So, my dad did two invasions like that. Wow. in World War II.
44:40
Wow. Sicily and North Africa. And when you say that, it makes me think
44:46
like, well, how it’s it’s like a whole other level that I I that’s why like
44:52
when I think of stuff like that, growing up like that, the stuff I’m talking about
44:57
seems really kind of privileged and easy. Like letting go to so to take a solo
45:03
like I’m not gonna get thrown out of a dumpster on the water, right? I’m not going to get shot at. And
45:09
yeah, but see, a lot of this stuff is all relative to your experience and what you
45:14
value, but I I it’s not like it I obsess on it or anything, but it’s in me. It’s
45:21
like I think of that. Yes, that’s a real act of faith where just like whatever’s going to happen, I know
45:26
I’m I’m here for a reason. You know, I don’t know if I’m going to pull this off and it is life or death.
45:33
Yeah. So, it kind of made a lot of this stuff, just to put it in perspective, if you think I’m just like, oh, this
45:38
freewheing person, you know, oh, it’s all easy, a lot of things are easy when you compare them.
45:45
Exactly right. Exactly right. You know, I’ve worked with um in in in my work, I’ve had the the
45:52
privilege to work with a number of people who have certain disabilities. I worked with one singer songwriter who
45:59
had been in a wheelchair since she was four years old. And um I am currently
46:05
working with a um blues guitarist who has been blind for most of his life, you
46:11
know, and there’s this there there’s this whole shift in
46:17
perspective when you realize what these people are working through that we’ve never even had to conceive of, you know,
46:26
and I think that’s just so amazing to me and to see, you know, my my friend who
46:32
was in the wheelchair, you know, she would always joke about, you know, she would always make height jokes because
46:37
she was always down at this level, you know, and uh you know, the the guitar
46:42
player I’m talking about, you know, he we’ve been joking about the whole idea that we’re going to do a video and he’s making some decisions on the video, the
46:49
blind guy, you know, and I I think the fact that they can joke about this,
46:55
it changes my perspective immensely by just realizing that, wow, you know, I
47:01
can’t even conceive of living the life that they’re living and yet they’re at a
47:07
point of acceptance and they’re just forging ahead and you know going on with
47:13
their lives and I think that’s so inspirational in a way you know changes your whole perspective on things.
47:19
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you learn stuff. That’s that’s what I get out of every time there’s an interaction.
47:26
And if you can come to that conclusion, you know, some of the stuff you’re doing,
47:32
um, it just becomes more of a blessing to be able to do to
47:37
to go mow the lawn or whatever, you know, chore you got to do. It’s like, I can do that.
47:43
Right. Right. Well, you know, and that’s part of, you know, part of the therapy that um that a lot of these uh very very
47:52
uh zen therapists I’ve spoken with and worked with say all the time is that,
47:57
you know, a lot of it has to do with your own inner dialogue. And the idea of saying, “Oh my god, I got to do this
48:04
mix.” And you know, and I got to do this, you know, and you know, change that, turn that around, flip, right? and
48:10
you know, flip that and say, “Wow, I get to do this. You know, I’m fortunate
48:15
enough. I’m privileged enough.” I mean, man, you know, I I realize and I remind myself all the time that I’ve gotten to
48:23
spend my entire life in the music industry creating music, doing working
48:28
with wonderful people, doing great stuff like this, you know, that’s an incredible privilege, man. And we, you
48:35
know, a lot of times we forget that because we get so mired in all of this, you Yeah. A lot of a lot of words too
48:41
today are are geared toward a certain kind of cynical coolness.
48:47
Yep. You know, the word annoying like wasn’t that much in the atmosphere and it’s
48:52
like a lot of times I hear that and it’s like I’m so annoying and you know, it’s just
48:58
I understand it’s not really that annoying those things just but these words kind of lead you.
49:06
Yep. They can. So they have meaning. Yeah. It’s true. It’s true. And I think
49:11
our own inner dialogue, [clears throat] our own inner dialogue is very very important because we we tend to
49:19
influence ourselves subtly. So in my course, Think Like a Synth.
49:24
Uhhuh. I talk [clears throat] about this multiple times. I talk to myself.
49:29
Uhhuh. Whenever I program synth, I totally talk to myself. That was a nice segue because I just
49:35
wanted to bring that up. The fact that you’ve you’ve evolved into natural thing because that’s one of the
49:41
few times that I do talk. I don’t normally walk around talking to myself. But I find a lot of value
49:48
in talking to myself when I’m creating sounds with a bunch of cables and
49:53
trying to remember where I am and I’ll be like, well, what do I do next? Oh, where’s that oscillator? I used that
49:58
one already. And I to I really encourage people to do it. It also helps you remember
50:04
Yeah. where you are, where you’re going. What was I trying to do? I was trying to get this to happen. Is there another way to
50:11
do this, you know, and I just do it and it works for me. you know, you don’t have to do everybody doesn’t have to do
50:17
it the same way, but you just said something about like, you know, inner voice and talking to yourself and
50:23
Well, and I think that’s very helpful, too, because I, you know, I I have long believed that all of us who are involved
50:31
in creativity. We’re all a little bit quote unquote on the spectrum. You know,
50:36
we’re all a little bit sort of distracted and, you know, our brains are firing in different ways than the
50:44
typical, you know, neurotypical people, I would say. And um you know I think
50:52
those kind of shall we say mental tools like talking to yourself like like
50:58
narrating certain things like keeping track of things I think they’re important because we’re constantly our
51:05
brains are always running hot you know we’re always on to the next idea before we’ve finished the first one and we’ve
51:11
always got you know seven different squirrels running around in the in the periphery distracting us and doing a
51:16
bunch of different things. And so being able to find that focus and
51:23
be able to hone in on something, you know, that that can be very helpful, I think. You
51:29
know, talking yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it’s [clears throat] like hunting.
51:35
How so? That’s an interesting analogy. It’s a It’s an innate survival thing. It’s the most important thing. Before we
51:41
had like packaged food, right, wrapped in plastic. Uhhuh. We had going Yeah. Uh-huh.
51:47
And when you hunt, even with you and I are together, we got a couple people with us. You don’t talk,
51:54
you focus. Right. Like a gathering, you talk.
52:00
Yeah. Because you want to keep the animals away so you can have time. You don’t want to get jumped. Right.
52:06
So you make noise and you hunt and you gather. Two different modes. And I I think in creative process the
52:12
same thing. So that’s where I’ll go into a deep focus and I don’t I don’t want
52:18
all that. But when I’m just figuring out the plan, you know, so I use these, but they’re
52:25
innate like I almost would challenge you on the the thing like what normal is and
52:31
it is normal today to not be like a creative person where you’re using both
52:36
sides of your brain and bouncing around. But I think innately it’s more of a survival thing. we’re just not required
52:42
to do it because they didn’t have all this technology, you know, back then. And our bodies, I don’t think, have
52:49
evolved at the same rate as our technology. So, our brains or our brain, well, it’s all part of our
52:54
body, right? Our lungs, our heart, our brains. And so, we still need, you know, a lot
53:00
of sleep. We still need to focus. We still need to to create, you know, like
53:05
how we used to communicate was drawing pictures, people. We and this is all creativity. And so I
53:11
think and then by working both sides of your brain, you actually keep your memory sharp as you get older. So the
53:17
musicians are doing more of this innate survival stuff more than a lot of people
53:22
are. Uhhuh. I think it’s more innate, but our our society has allowed us to be complacent.
53:28
We don’t have to do these things as much. We don’t have to finish things. We don’t have to focus as much. Things just come our way. Like how how much do I
53:35
have to focus to get like chicken out of the the thing? And it’s like it’s covered in plastic and it’s all cleaned.
53:40
I don’t have to take the feathers off. Right. Right. But I think about how much work would have to [snorts] go into something.
53:46
Sure. And by putting yourself in that situation and letting your body experience I think in a more innate to
53:53
experience a more innate um series of actions
53:58
uh is better for you. That’s an interesting analogy though because I I hadn’t thought about it in
54:04
those terms but you’re absolutely right. It’s uh it forces you to focus on some
54:11
very fundamental aspects of things that we really because of the way we live now
54:17
because of the way we have grown up societal uh norms so to speak. We really think
54:24
completely differently and we do skip a lot of those very fundamental steps. Yeah. Like if you go in a cathedral they
54:31
don’t tell everybody talk as much as you want. It’s like we go quiet here. Yeah.
54:36
Why? Yeah. Because we’re looking for inspiration, right? We want to be listening because it’s not coming from us. Right. Right. That’s how
54:42
you said it. Yeah. So, if it’s not coming from us, we don’t want to be blabbing. Get out of the way.
54:47
Yeah. A little bit. You know, all these things are like built in. For centuries, people have been doing this stuff. But somehow
54:53
we think, you know, we’re going to like flip on a DAW, you know, and then it’s just it’s not going to happen like that.
55:00
Well, and that’s part of the problem is we’ve been so inundated now. We’ve been inured with this whole idea of I can
55:06
flip on that DAW and I can drag in a bunch of loops and, you know, all of a
55:12
sudden, bam, I’m a producer. I’m a musician, you know. Yeah. You you won’t sound like you.
55:17
Yeah. You’re an artisan. And I think there’s a difference, you know, in that sense between being an artisan and being an
55:22
artist, right? And I I think there’s a different feeling and health benefits that come
55:29
from the struggle of doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s a it’s a question of,
55:34
you know, how do I versus [snorts] what if I, you know, one of them is how do I
55:43
create something that sounds like XYZ? You know, that’s already been done. And
55:50
what we’re doing is emulating it. Like I talked about with the James Jamerson lines, that’s great for learning
55:56
something. Totally imitation. Perfect. But then if I say, “Oh, but what happens
56:01
if I try something completely different?” You know, um the classic example that I
56:07
always loved is, you know, George Martin working with this little skiffl band from Liverpool. What happens if I put a
56:14
string quartet behind this? You know, and of course their initial reaction was
56:19
no way. Right? But trying that is opening a different door, you know, and
56:26
mixing the genres and stuff. And I think being able to say, “Yeah, what happens if I, you know, I’ve always loved the
56:32
idea that as artists, as musicians, we take technologies that have been
56:37
designed for one thing and we do something completely different with them.” You know, this wall of
56:43
synthesizers is the perfect example. You know, these were not necessarily created
56:48
for the sounds that we have used them to create. Well, yeah, it took a long time. You
56:54
know, people would funk bass, right? Exactly. Who would have thought? You know, [laughter] Bob Moog when he made it.
56:59
I I don’t think he was thinking funk bass. He’s saying to Herb Deutsch, why does this thing need a keyboard?
57:05
Right. Exactly. Because the original ones didn’t have keyboards on them, like Yeah. Yeah. And then you know you’ve got guys like uh um you know guys who
57:13
created uh alternative controllers you know who didn’t think about it in that way you know and I think all of that is
57:21
so you know like I I love um the stuff that Suzanchi does you know with her
57:27
completely weird and you know outlandish control surfaces and right you know
57:33
and the blas yeah and the bulgas of the world you know all of that I think is again It’s it’s approaching it from a from a
57:40
completely almost childlike, you know, u
57:46
perspective of, you know, the what they call the beginner’s mind, you know.
57:51
That’s amazing. Yeah, that’s true. And she puts a lot of work and preparation into it so that she could be free and create these totally unique
57:58
experiences on the spot and go places and but a lot of, you know, a lot of preparation goes into that to to setting
58:04
it up. Yeah. But this is like that’s why it doesn’t happen automatically. And I I’ve probably have been using this example
58:11
too much, but it applies so much to today like like with the weight loss
58:16
things and everything. You can lose weight now without really doing any work.
58:21
Yeah. But doesn’t make you fit, right? You can’t jump over the hurdle. You
58:28
know, you you’re just not fit. You got to do the work. You’re still out of breath when when you run. Yeah. And so there’s a I think there’s a
58:35
health benefit along with it the struggle like taking
58:40
it to the next level even an inch. But if you just push buttons and you just get a response after a while it’s
58:48
actually lowering like I’m not the scientist on all this on what’s going on in your brain and everything but it
58:54
doesn’t make me feel as good right as if I put work into something. And I learned this from teaching well like
59:01
coaching. I coached kids a lot. You know, I got licensed as a soccer coach and I’ve coached a lot of sports and I
59:09
learned like two things that really stuck with me. One coach experience told me um kids like doing hard things well
59:17
and then I realized adults do too. Yes. We feel good. Yeah. Even if it’s a business, you know, Steve
59:23
Jobs, whatever. Hard stuff. Yeah. And you struggle and you do it well and you fail and you get fired and you come
59:28
back and you improve it. And how many times do you have to tell a kid the same
59:33
thing? Uhhuh. How many times do you have to tell the violist
59:40
like you’re not in time? Mhm. Right. You’re not you’re not getting this like pop music rhythm.
59:47
Right. Right. Uhhuh. And and what I learned from coaches is as many times as it takes.
59:53
Yeah. Yeah. That’s what they told me. Because you’re not going to force anybody to be able to do magical things.
1:00:01
They’ll do them by, you know, Yeah. Okay. Mhm. But it’s not going to be special. I
1:00:08
think that comes from working with the process, going through the struggle, and
1:00:14
if you’re with a group, letting the group finds it and then they feel it. And the same thing for the individual.
1:00:20
So those are the two things I learned through coaching, you know, kids in sports. But I I those are really strong
1:00:27
messages that I carried forward in in even working with an orchestra or groups or rhythm section or anything.
1:00:34
Mhm. Well, and I think another sort of adjunct thought to that is the idea of
1:00:42
having some patience and some faith in the process. You know there’s a one of
1:00:48
the laws of physics is that elements that absorb heat or light quickly give
1:00:56
it off quickly and the inverse is also true. You know if it absorbs slowly it retains
1:01:02
it for longer and I think the same thing is true with you know you were just talking about the
1:01:08
whole idea of losing weight quickly. You know, I think there is I think that one of the benefits of
1:01:14
losing that weight or getting fit or whatever it is slowly is that you are building this
1:01:21
resistance. You’re building these habits. The same way if you’re learning an instrument, you’re learning slowly.
1:01:27
And there’s a there’s a a real benefit to that because when it happens that
1:01:33
way, you’ve gone through the process and you retain Yeah. the retention’s there. Yeah. like cramming for a test,
1:01:39
right? If the next day it’s poof. Exactly. Exactly. But if you’ve
1:01:45
actually spent weeks studying for that test, you’re going to remember a lot more of it. Same thing. And I think, you
1:01:52
know, same thing with learning any process or especially when you’re talking about sports, you know, you’re
1:01:59
not going to you’re not going to step out there after, you know, you could spend an entire day hitting balls.
1:02:04
[snorts] You know, that doesn’t mean that the next day you’re going to be an expert, but if you spend months hitting
1:02:10
those balls, you’re going to start you’re going to have developed a muscle memory
1:02:16
that is going to stick with you more long term. Yeah. I think that’s the same kind of concept.
1:02:21
I remember there was I saw a video of Chick Korea talking about it and how like you can like read the music and you
1:02:29
can play them you can play the music. You read it, you site read it, right? Then the next one is you memorize the music and you come to the gig or
1:02:36
whatever and you got it memorized and you can play it like it’s better. Usually you can play it better, right? But then he said when you play it a lot,
1:02:44
you get something new to it. You get an understanding of the music, right?
1:02:49
And I think that’s true of all these subjects like students learning like cramming versus like really studying
1:02:54
because you have a chance to do that observational thing like we were talking about. You learn it, you get the sense of discovery, then you go back and you
1:03:01
analyze and you go, “Oh, that’s making sense.” It’s a process that takes time and yeah, you get
1:03:07
healthful benefits from it. And one of them is understanding. Yes. And then when you have understanding of
1:03:13
things, I think it slows in another sports analogy, it slows down the game. You know, they talk
1:03:20
about these guys. Yeah. And anything in music too, like the conductor that just he’s done it and
1:03:27
he slows it down and he’s not waving his hands like a going crazy like there
1:03:32
there’s stories about uh Johan Strauss conducting and he would he would just breathe.
1:03:37
He would be like he wouldn’t have to conduct all the
1:03:42
beats. Right. Right. The orchestra knew that but he was creating the flow.
1:03:48
Yeah. You know the whole thing. And I think when you can slow it all down and then your heart responds again healthful
1:03:54
benefits, you walk into a situation and other people pick up on your not your musical rhythm but
1:04:01
your rhythm. You walk in a room. Yeah, that’s a Quincy thing. It is. It is. And it’s a very much a zen
1:04:07
thing. It’s a process of having absorbed
1:04:13
the process itself, you know. Yeah. Deep understanding. Yeah. It’s one
1:04:19
thing to to memorize the music. It’s another to have immersed yourself in the
1:04:25
music to the point where you’re not only playing it back, you’re putting some of yourself into it. Yeah. Yeah.
1:04:31
You can understand and you can explain it to somebody in very simple terms. Yeah. Not a complicated explanation.
1:04:38
It’s just like I can’t remember that. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I like that. Well, let me close with the question I
1:04:45
frequently ask people. you came up in a completely different era in terms of the technologies and
1:04:52
everything and yet you you integrate a lot of those same concepts into the
1:04:58
stuff you’re doing now. What would you tell 15year-old you coming into the into
1:05:03
this situation in this day and age with the with the technologies and the different the different era that we’re
1:05:11
in right now? Well, I mean for me it’s always been about the music. So, if it’s somebody
1:05:17
that’s really interested in technology, I’d probably be the wrong person to to advise them. I’d say go find somebody
1:05:22
that really knows about technology. But if you want to know about music and you want to know about, you know,
1:05:30
enjoying music and being relevant in music and and appreciating
1:05:36
where it came from and where it’s going, then I can we can have a talk
1:05:42
and let’s play. I’d say let’s just play and I want to feel what’s going on with you. I mean, too much of of it is
1:05:48
talking and advisory and all that, but I think when people hear it like talk like
1:05:54
a kid, okay, there’s I guess there’s a third thing I learned about it about coaching kids. You can say the same
1:06:01
thing over and over and over, but when they feel it and there’s an action or an experience that makes them remember
1:06:07
something, that’s when the penny drops. Yeah. It’s true. Yeah. So, that’s where I’d go with it.
1:06:12
Uh-huh. Yeah, I think you’re right because I think a lot of it really does come down to
1:06:18
that innate feel that we were talking about in the beginning. That’s something that really hasn’t changed.
1:06:25
No, our bodies are we we we’re not evolving, you know, with all this technology the
1:06:31
same way. Our our human whatever the technology is going at every five years they’re saying it’s like
1:06:38
it was doubling and now it’s quadrupling and it’s like going more and more crazy. Uh but I don’t think humans are our
1:06:44
evolution cycle is like humans still look kind of the same over the last hundred years and we’ve had 25
1:06:50
year cycles of technology. Yeah. So I’d say like let’s move that out of the way and get good in yourself first
1:06:58
and then you can see you know what you want to interface with if you’re talking technology terms you know.
1:07:03
Uhhuh. I like that. Anthony Marili, thank you for being my
1:07:09
guest. Yes. A pleasure, man. That was really fun. Yeah, you you you took it some to some cool places, but places that I
1:07:15
think really matter. I try to, you know, that’s I I feel like that’s part of why I do this is I I I’m
1:07:22
not interested in talking about fanboying out about gear and careers. I’m I’m interested in what makes us tick
1:07:29
as artists and as creative people, you know, and that to me is I think where we
1:07:35
both we have a lot in common there because that’s what we want to teach. That’s what we want to inspire other
1:07:43
people with, right? Is what’s going on up here, you know, and out there, as we say.
1:07:50
Yeah, exactly. Thanks. It’s been fun. Yeah.
1:07:57
Hey, I’m Daniel Keller. Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button and join us each week for Insights and Sound.