Insights In Sound 212 – Craig Bauer, Producer/Engineer S22 E2

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0:2727 secondsI’m chatting with Craig Bower from his lovely studio in outside of Denver, I guess. Is that right?
0:3636 secondsIt’s Yeah, I guess it’s typic It’s a It’s a Denver suburb. It’s very close to downtown. Okay. 20 minutes.
0:4343 secondsSo, it’s some somewhere in the beautiful Rocky Mountains area. Um correct. Um, Craig is a multi- Grammyinning producer,
0:5353 secondseducator, engineer, um, and allaround jack of all something or others. Right.
1:001 minuteYeah. But I’m going to correct you. I am a one-time Grammyinning mixer with 32 other nominations.
1:081 minute, 8 secondsAh, okay. I knew you had I’m the I’m the least winning mixer of all time.
1:131 minute, 13 secondsOh, no, no, no. Believe me, there are there are more more there are more least winning ones than you.
1:201 minute, 20 secondsWell, probably not with as many plaques on the walls, but yes.
1:241 minute, 24 secondsFair enough. Fair enough. Yes. But you you’ve you’ve been um you’ve been the bridesmaid many times, if only the bride once. Okay. Correct.
1:321 minute, 32 secondsFair enough. Um and um the other thing that I thought was interesting and and you know I don’t get too much into
1:401 minute, 40 secondspeople’s work in that sense because it there there are more interesting things to talk about but the um what fascinated
1:471 minute, 47 secondsme is that as I understand it you are a classically trained pianist and a guitarist and yet your Grammy was for hiphop working with Kanye.
1:591 minute, 59 secondsCorrect. And it gets even funnier when the majority of those Grammy plaques are in gospel music. So hip hip hop and gospel and a jazz record.
2:092 minutes, 9 secondsWhich is pretty interesting for a nice Jewish boy from Cleveland. Yes. U there were no black people in my
2:162 minutes, 16 secondsneighborhood all the way through high school. Yes. Very interesting. Okay. Um, so yeah,
2:232 minutes, 23 secondslet’s let’s In fact, in fact, in fact, Kanye was the very first black artist I ever worked with long before he was famous.
2:332 minutes, 33 secondsI thought you were going to say long before he was black.
2:382 minutes, 38 secondsWould have been funnier, but uh yeah, long before he was Kanye. Correct.
2:442 minutes, 44 secondsYes. Yes. Um, yeah, we’ll we’ll dig into that in a minute because you know,
2:492 minutes, 49 secondscertainly there’s there’s some aspects of of uh working with the artists that I really want to get into. Um, you know,
2:552 minutes, 55 secondsbut, um, give me a little bit of background on the career trajectory. Are you you when you say classically trained, uh, you didn’t say it, I did,
3:043 minutes, 4 secondsbut when one says classically trained, uh, I assume uh, music school, studies,
3:093 minutes, 9 secondsetc., etc. Is that fair? uh private piano lessons starting in third grade
3:163 minutes, 16 secondsmaybe. Uh and it only happened accidentally because my one of my mother’s friends, her mother was a piano
3:243 minutes, 24 secondsteacher and there was some lunchon at our house one day and the question, “Hey D, do you want to take piano lessons?”
3:313 minutes, 31 secondsAnd now I’m stuck in this business.
3:353 minutes, 35 secondsIt was either that or play baseball basically, right?
3:383 minutes, 38 secondsWhat What else do you do in the city growing up, you know? Correct. Mhm. Okay.
3:443 minutes, 44 secondsUh so I I started uh piano lessons in third or fourth grade and I got to a point I I kind of took to it naturally.
3:543 minutes, 54 secondsI had a a really good ear or have a really good ear. Uh I can pretty much play excluding complicated jazz pretty
4:034 minutes, 3 secondsmuch anything that I hear uh pretty pretty easily. Uh, I got to a point and I don’t remember what grade this was in.
4:114 minutes, 11 secondsIt was either sixth or seventh where that teacher said to me, “I can’t help you anymore.” And then, uh, I found a teacher at the Cleveland Institute of
4:194 minutes, 19 secondsMusic who I was with until I went to college. And then I majored in music education and, uh, minored in, uh,
4:274 minutes, 27 secondsclassical piano.
4:284 minutes, 28 secondsNow, are you one of those bastards that can read music fluently and improvise?
4:344 minutes, 34 secondsUh, I used to be able to, but I haven’t opened up a classical piano book in since probably the minute I graduated college.
4:424 minutes, 42 secondsOkay. I see I I mean I come from the school of uh of can’t read music very well. It slows me down when you put sheet music in front of me. You know
4:514 minutes, 51 secondsthat joke about how you get a bass player to slow down or turn down or whatever. Yeah, I’m that guy. But uh but I’m good with improvis improvisation and
4:594 minutes, 59 secondsI have a good ear. And I’ve always been fascinated by the people because you know for the most part they fall into those two camps. They can either read
5:065 minutes, 6 secondsand you take the music away and they have no road map or they can improvise but they can’t read. So I’m fascinated by the people who can actually do both.
5:155 minutes, 15 secondsUm and I hate you.
5:175 minutes, 17 secondsI I well don’t that much because I was not a fantastic site reader. It took you know I had to like study it. I’m not one
5:265 minutes, 26 secondsof those guys that opened it up like I’m not that guy. Okay, good.
5:305 minutes, 30 secondsThen we could be friends. I I read music just, you know, just fine,
5:345 minutes, 34 secondsbut I had to, you know, I had to work at it. My ear is far better than my sight. far far better than myself.
5:405 minutes, 40 secondsThat that tends to be I have found that for the most part people who get into production and engineering tend to
5:485 minutes, 48 secondsusually be more um rely more on their ear than on the you know the classical training per se. You know I think the
5:575 minutes, 57 secondsclassical training is really great for understanding the orchestration and the big picture of how the how all the stuff fits together. But, you know, no one had
6:046 minutes, 4 secondsit here. That’s a more valuable gift, I guess.
6:086 minutes, 8 secondsWell, certainly for mixing because you don’t have sheet music in front of you while you’re mixing. At least I haven’t.
6:156 minutes, 15 secondsI I haven’t seen anybody do it, and nor do I really necessarily want to, but yeah. Um, so transition from musician to engineering,
6:266 minutes, 26 secondshow’d that happen?
6:276 minutes, 27 secondsI mean, do you want to really hear that story? It takes a second. Uh, I I’ll make it quick. I had your time. I had a next door neighbor.
6:356 minutes, 35 secondsI had a next door neighbor, this blonde kid with curly hair. And you have to remember, I’m not young. So, uh, what was super hip back when I was in sixth
6:446 minutes, 44 secondsgrade, Simon and Garuncle were like, you know, kind of still there in a in a real way. Okay.
6:516 minutes, 51 secondsAnd he was Garfuncle to my Simon. And in the first time we ever uh performed together, I think was in sixth grade
6:596 minutes, 59 secondsdoing a cover of Sound of Silence with me on the piano. And we became a thing
7:067 minutes, 6 secondsthat performed together from that moment all the way through college and then doing gigs three or four nights a week
7:137 minutes, 13 secondsin Cleveland in bars and clubs as this duo cover thing. uh somewhere I think in
7:227 minutes, 22 secondsjunior year of high school I believe maybe I don’t know maybe sophomore
7:297 minutes, 29 secondsa going back to our Jewish roots uh he was involved in some you know Jewish youth group thing and we were asked to
7:367 minutes, 36 secondsgo into a recording studio and record a cover of Eric Carman’s All by Myself
7:447 minutes, 44 secondswhich Selene Dion then made a huge hit Oh my god. Now, on top of that, it was me and a roads and him sing, but on top
7:527 minutes, 52 secondsof that, Eric Carman went to my high school, by the way, from Cleveland. Wow.
7:567 minutes, 56 secondsUh there are a lot of famous uh rock stars and musicians from Cleveland. So, we’d go into this recording studio, the only
8:058 minutes, 5 secondsreal one in Cleveland, Ohio, and they stuck an 87 in front of him and an 87 in front of me. I had no idea what it was at the time. And I have this Fender
8:138 minutes, 13 secondsRoads, and we do this thing. And he starts singing and I hear reverb in headphones and it was over that second.
8:228 minutes, 22 secondsIt was done. It was written. Nothing else mattered from that very second.
8:278 minutes, 27 secondsI feel you, man. In fact, u I had a similar experience the first time I went into the studio and uh stood in front in
8:348 minutes, 34 secondsthe vocal booth in front of an 87 and um I remember I leaned in front of the microphone and I put my hands in my pockets and I leaned into the microphone
8:438 minutes, 43 secondsand said, “I can hear the dates of the dimes in my pockets.”
8:498 minutes, 49 secondsAnd same thing, it was all over, you know, that and the flashing blinking lights of course that did it too, you know.
8:558 minutes, 55 secondsYeah. Um it’s Yeah. I’m not a religious person in the least, but that was a religious experience.
9:029 minutes, 2 secondsYep. Yep. I understand.
9:049 minutes, 4 secondsAnd then it went from that to hanging around the local music store and coming across uh there’s probably a picture of
9:129 minutes, 12 secondsthis in my Instagram page. I know there is uh seeing a little fourtrack reeltore and six channel Tascam, you know.
9:199 minutes, 19 secondsWas it a 3340?
9:229 minutes, 22 secondsNo, it was after that it was a 22 something. I don’t remember what it was.
9:269 minutes, 26 secondsyou know, little seveninch reels and Okay. four tracks. I had the 3340. I bought it.
9:319 minutes, 31 secondsYeah. I bought it off the recycler and then I got it home and realized, oh, I need a mixer. Yes.
9:399 minutes, 39 secondsAnd uh and this little six channel mixer with six faders, pan and treble and bass, and
9:479 minutes, 47 secondsuh had some ridiculously stupid speakers.
9:509 minutes, 50 secondsUh, mind you, I had to talk my very conservative uh, and money penching father into
9:589 minutes, 58 secondslending me the money to buy this contraption. Uh, which took my mother’s convincing. Uh, he was not he was not
10:0610 minutes, 6 secondsdown for this. And I had to get a job washing dishes in a country club to pay for this, pay him back for this thing,
10:1210 minutes, 12 secondswhich I did over course of a number of years.
10:1610 minutes, 16 secondsAnd uh I started recording stuff and I had another friend who was writing songs, someone different and I would
10:2310 minutes, 23 secondsrecord her and here I am with this little fourtrack and this little six channel mixer. So that started when I
10:3210 minutes, 32 secondswas, you know, a junior in high school went, you know, I took that to college.
10:3610 minutes, 36 secondsI never read read a book in college. I never did an ounce of homework because when I say it was written the second I
10:4210 minutes, 42 secondsheard that reverb, I am not kidding. it was done. Yeah.
10:4710 minutes, 47 secondsSo, um that’s where it started and uh ultimately skipping the endless stories
10:5510 minutes, 55 secondsturned into opening a studio uh in Chicago on Ohio Street being just stupid enough to open another studio when there
11:0411 minutes, 4 secondswas three other ones within a mile radius. Chicago Recording Company, Streetville,
11:1111 minutes, 11 secondsRither River North, uh literally. And here I am. I some kid with
11:1711 minutes, 17 secondsyou know 27 28 with zero recording studio real recording studio experience open this thing bought the very first Euphonic CS2.
11:2711 minutes, 27 secondsOh you had budget. Uh okay.
11:3011 minutes, 30 secondsUh yeah it took a lot of it took some real loans that were paid back. Um
11:3711 minutes, 37 secondsand uh that’s that euphonics is a a fun story too because I bought the very first one.
11:4311 minutes, 43 secondsOh I’m sorry. It it was so new that these salespeople tried to talk me out of it. And I’m not joking.
11:5211 minutes, 52 secondsUh true story. But everyone else had a had an SSL. You know, everyone in the streets down the street and the next
11:5911 minutes, 59 secondsstreet over was all SSL and there was one knee VR and I had the cool new toy. Hey, get you the business, right?
12:0812 minutes, 8 secondsAnd uh between that and the lack of a stuffy attitude and it became the place very quickly.
12:1512 minutes, 15 secondsUh so you were the you were the renegade of the of the uh recording row and uh I was you know a little cheaper
12:2312 minutes, 23 secondsnot much cheaper and Kanye was literally one of the very first clients I had probably within the first three months.
12:3012 minutes, 30 secondsSo, one of the lessons that we learn when we start working in studios, and I guess even more so when you own that
12:3612 minutes, 36 secondsstudio is that all forms of music are valid. Uh, had you worked had you done a lot of hip-hop stuff before that or was this, you know,
12:4612 minutes, 46 secondsI never I go back to my my description of my neighborhood. That’s what I’m that’s why I’m asking.
12:5312 minutes, 53 secondsYeah. Yeah. So, it might have been I hate to say this because I don’t mean to sound this way. It may literally have
13:0013 minutesbeen the first black person I have ever I it might be met or worked around in any real kind of way and uh you know,
13:1213 minutes, 12 secondsone thing led to another and here I am like doing every the only music that was not done in this studio was heavy metal and grunge because it’s just not me.
13:2213 minutes, 22 secondsInteresting. So, so when you’re doing this, I mean, this is also early days of hip-hop. Um, now I I know that, you
13:3013 minutes, 30 secondsknow, some of the earliest tracks that I did in hip-hop were, you know, back in the 90s. Uh, it wasn’t a lot of sampling
13:3713 minutes, 37 secondsback then. It was vinyl. It was the real, you know, like people who knew how to be turntableists. Was that was that part of the equation,
13:4513 minutes, 45 secondstoo?
13:4613 minutes, 46 secondsNo, Kanye came in with an MPC. And when it started, it was him and an MPC.
13:5313 minutes, 53 secondsAnd it it wasn’t him coming in with stuff done. It was literally programming it on the spot. Uh hey, you were Bill by the hour, right?
14:0414 minutes, 4 secondsYes. And we would be he would come in in the evenings and we would be there till 3:00 in the morning and he’d be programming beats and and then going
14:1214 minutes, 12 secondsinto the live room and recording a you know you know a a rap that was improvised on the spot. Um, and it it was an adventure and uh,
14:2314 minutes, 23 secondswow,
14:2414 minutes, 24 secondsit turned into him. I don’t rem I don’t remember how it got connected, but he somehow got connected to Diddy and we
14:3214 minutes, 32 secondswould program he would program these things, go in the booth, record something, do a very quick rough mix, I mean very quick, burn an MP3 or print an
14:4214 minutes, 42 secondsMP3 and it was the time of brand new internet and FTP servers and it would take 40 minutes to upload an MP3.
14:5214 minutes, 52 secondsIf you think I’m kidding, I am not. Uh,
14:5514 minutes, 55 secondsand one thing led to another and then Kanye turned into Kanye and I what we worked on in those days ultimately
15:0215 minutes, 2 secondsturned into college dropout. I can’t find my name on the album, but that’s what happened. Uh,
15:0915 minutes, 9 secondsthat’s that’s happens a lot too obviously, you know, but uh and and you know, not just in hip-hop, but in pretty much every genre. you know, those of us
15:1815 minutes, 18 secondswho are there at the inception don’t get to don’t don’t get to the the glory of uh you know, once they get discovered, so to speak.
15:2615 minutes, 26 secondsCorrect. It’s happened multiple times to you. It’s happened multiple times to everyone I know and it’s happened multiple times to me. It’s almost worse to be in there in the beginning.
15:3615 minutes, 36 secondsIt’s it’s almost worse. Here you are helping create this person or or you’re along with them. I don’t mean create them, but you’re working with them. And
15:4515 minutes, 45 secondsthen the next thing they do is the thing that and they’ve forgotten all about you.
15:4915 minutes, 49 secondsYeah. Yeah. The the thing that it does teach us though is a lot about not only
15:5615 minutes, 56 secondsnavigating personalities because of course there’s that aspect of it, but also um figuring out how to coax who the
16:0516 minutes, 5 secondsartist is out of the artist because normally when they’re at that phase of their career, they have no idea who the hell they are. And that would be true in this case too.
16:1516 minutes, 15 secondsSo was that also,
16:1916 minutes, 19 secondsyou know, because what fascinates me about that and from my own personal experience and I’m I’m guessing it was the same for you is that you go in there
16:2816 minutes, 28 secondsas the engineer and you end up becoming the producer kind of by default.
16:3616 minutes, 36 secondsIn his case, I don’t think that’s true.
16:3916 minutes, 39 secondsIn many many many many other cases, it’s absolutely true. In fact, I’m going through it right this very second where
16:4616 minutes, 46 secondsI have become the deacto producer with a young kid who’s very talented.
16:5216 minutes, 52 secondsuh he brought to me something uh that’s well written and he’s a good singer, but every part of the track needs to be done
17:0117 minutes, 1 secondcorrectly and with great people so it can live up to the quality of his voice and his writing because what is there doesn’t or didn’t now it does.
17:1117 minutes, 11 secondsUm yeah, that’s happened many times. And because I’m a musician, uh,
17:1817 minutes, 18 secondsI have those things to offer, I would say. Um, some people are receptive to it and some people tell me to shut the hell up. Um, which is fine, too.
17:2817 minutes, 28 secondsBut I think part of the job, if you have that skill or regardless of what your skill is in any job, if you have something to offer, I think it should be
17:3717 minutes, 37 secondsoffered and someone can tell you whether they don’t want to hear it or not.
17:4017 minutes, 40 secondsSure. I mean, you know, we we’ve all had our share of artists who come in and they know exactly what they want. And whether you agree with them or not,
17:4817 minutes, 48 secondsyou’re best to just get the hell out of the way and let them do that.
17:5117 minutes, 51 secondsTrue. And when you when you work with someone who is obviously wellprepared and highly talented, it’s not even
17:5817 minutes, 58 secondsnecessary to open your mouth because you can see that and it’s just not required.
18:0318 minutes, 3 secondsYeah. And then there are there are the times when you think you should open your mouth, but you know better and you have been slapped down and you just shut
18:1218 minutes, 12 secondsup and let it happen. You know, there’s that.
18:1418 minutes, 14 secondsYeah, those those are those are fun stories, too, but we won’t get into that.
18:1918 minutes, 19 secondsYeah. But you know the the thing that I think is um sort of the delineation between being the engineer knob twiddler
18:2918 minutes, 29 secondsversus being the producer is when you can help them also birth that
18:3618 minutes, 36 secondspersonality that is the thing behind the artist. You know not just like is this a good track but you know why do I want to
18:4418 minutes, 44 secondslisten to you? Who are you? Uh why do you want to listen to you? you know who I mean essentially that’s that’s a big part of what they’re doing in the studio
18:5218 minutes, 52 secondstoo and if we can contribute to that that’s a whole different ball of wax I think
19:0019 minutesuh absolutely um and I would will freely admit that 34 years into this it’s hard
19:0719 minutes, 7 secondsto hear something that can be better you know it can be better you know you can coax it out of them and remain quiet yep
19:1419 minutes, 14 secondsit’s frankly hard to do that at near 34. Yes. And and there’s an art to it, too.
19:2119 minutes, 21 secondsYou know, there’s an art to being able to make those suggestions.
19:2519 minutes, 25 secondsAnd you know ultimately I mean what I found and this is both it’s both a skill and it’s also a very
19:3319 minutes, 33 secondsfrustrating thing is you have to suggest it to them in such a way that they really think it’s their idea you know
19:4119 minutes, 41 secondsand they’ll take credit for it most of the time you know like yeah I’m really glad I did that man you know he’s yeah you know
19:5019 minutes, 50 secondsthat’s happened there’s you know I’ve also lived through my times where I thought I had even just in the mix situation
19:5819 minutes, 58 secondsum where I thought I had a great idea that may not be a part of the production and uh there’s a particular uh I learned
20:0820 minutes, 8 secondsa lesson once uh many many years ago where I had an idea that I thought would improve a track with someone extremely
20:1620 minutes, 16 secondsfamous at the time and I had this one little mute in between the bridge and the chorus and I’m like if we create this little space.
20:2620 minutes, 26 secondsIt’s going to make the entrance of the last hook much bigger. And I felt this was like something worth showing. And I
20:3420 minutes, 34 secondsdidn’t say it ahead of time and I didn’t express that it was just a simple idea that could be undone in a matter of
20:4220 minutes, 42 secondsseconds. And that particular person had a fit that I messed with their track and that was the last time that was the last
20:4920 minutes, 49 secondstime I saw them. So you learn that lesson. It’s like, “Hey, I have this idea. I just want to run it by you and if you like it, great. And if you don’t,
20:5720 minutes, 57 secondsit takes me two seconds to undo it. That will prep someone for yeah, I love it.
21:0221 minutes, 2 secondsNah, let’s leave it the way it was without someone getting upset. So, you tend to learn some lessons in this business the the hard way,
21:1021 minutes, 10 secondswhich is interesting because here here I am thinking, I’m going to play this for them. I’m going to run. They’re going to hear the mix,
21:1621 minutes, 16 secondsthe first verse down. They’re hearing be blown away. Uh yeah, it didn’t dawn on me they might be pissed that I’d mess with their track. You know, and and the
21:2521 minutes, 25 secondsflip side of that is that we are, you know, one of the things that we learn is the idea of trying to always say yes.
21:3321 minutes, 33 secondsYou know, yeah, you want to try something and even though in your head you’re thinking, God, that what a shitty idea that’s never going to fly, you
21:3921 minutes, 39 secondsknow, but you got to let them do it and and and you know, then hopefully they will say, “Yeah, nah.” you know, but you
21:4921 minutes, 49 secondsyou you know, if you say nah, then they’re going to be pissed at you. So,
21:5421 minutes, 54 secondsyou have to let them try it out. You know,
21:5721 minutes, 57 secondsas you know, and as you know, I assume a lot of people already know that your relationship and your communication with
22:0522 minutes, 5 secondsthe artist is equally as important as anything you do on this mixing console, if not more so. I think more so.
22:1322 minutes, 13 secondsYeah.
22:1422 minutes, 14 secondsYeah. and uh learning that and learning how to negotiate that and because every single person’s different, you don’t
22:2122 minutes, 21 secondsreally know how anything’s ever going to go when you have these kinds of, you know, you know, I did plenty of tracking
22:2822 minutes, 28 secondsin my first 20 years. And it’s the same thing when you’re tracking. No, that’s just a little bit out of tune. You know, this has been, you know, before meine.
22:3622 minutes, 36 secondsLet’s try with You got to be really careful how you say those things.
22:3922 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. Yeah. You can’t say, “Yeah, you know, that kind of sucked.” No, no, no. It’s like, uh, oh, that was pretty good. You want to try another one?
22:4722 minutes, 47 secondsYeah. There’s a big difference between those two things. And yes, you know,
22:5122 minutes, 51 secondseven though they may mean the same, you know.
22:5422 minutes, 54 secondsYes. And you run across every personality you could ever think of from people who are just don’t say a word to
23:0223 minutes, 2 secondsme to I want to hear. I’m dealing with another client right now who sent me a track this morning and it’s like, tell me if it sucks.
23:1323 minutes, 13 secondsyou know, tell me if I need to fix anything. And that’s someone who’s putting their entire faith in their
23:2123 minutes, 21 secondsentire faith in what you do, which is honorable, you know, makes you feel good at the same time. Uh, you know, you don’t ever want to tell someone something sucks, obviously. Um, so yeah,
23:3423 minutes, 34 secondsthere’s all types. It’s it’s been it’s been interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that’s for sure.
23:3923 minutes, 39 secondsSo for you the the career pivot though from you know opening the studio to
23:4923 minutes, 49 secondsbecoming the producer was very kind of gradual and almost obvious.
23:5623 minutes, 56 secondsI I well I’ve never actually labeled myself that’s not true. There’s people that I have produced. Uh, but when someone
24:0524 minutes, 5 secondshires me to do a mix, I don’t suddenly take on the idea in my head that I’m now the producer. Um, and if something comes
24:1424 minutes, 14 secondsup along the way, I, you know, I’m not afraid to say something. Uh, so I don’t really call myself a producer from that
24:2324 minutes, 23 secondsstandpoint. when someone hires me to mix, when I’m, you know, specifically working on someone as a musician that
24:3024 minutes, 30 secondsends up mixing the thing, you know, then I am the producer, but I spend more time on this thing and finding ways to
24:3824 minutes, 38 secondssuggest things without ever calling myself a producer ever. Well, and and to be clear, the term has been bastardized
24:4724 minutes, 47 secondsout of let’s put it this way, nobody ever really understood what we do. But now,
24:5524 minutes, 55 secondsyou know, even if they do understand,
24:5724 minutes, 57 secondsthey don’t understand, you know, but but there’s always been a really gray area between, you know, producer, mixer,
25:0525 minutes, 5 secondsengineer anyway. And you know it’s well that line that line is getting more and more blurred every single day and
25:1525 minutes, 15 secondswhether it’s with talent or without talent uh is a whole other yeah discussion. Yeah, but there, you know, if you think about it, I mean,
25:2225 minutes, 22 secondsthey are two distinctly left and right brain disciplines. And theoretically, I mean, you know, if I’m producing a band,
25:3025 minutes, 30 secondsif I have actually or an artist, if I’ve actually been brought in as a producer,
25:3425 minutes, 34 secondsI would vastly prefer to have an engineer. And that engineer, you know,
25:3825 minutes, 38 secondsI’ve been fortunate enough to work with some really great engineers who get me. And, you know, I can just say, you know,
25:4625 minutes, 46 secondsput a little bit of goop on it and they’ll know what I mean. You know, that kind of thing. because there is a a really, you know, it’s like um I’ve I’ve mentioned this before to other people,
25:5625 minutes, 56 secondsbut I’ve had guitar players ask me to make their guitar sound a little more brown,
26:0226 minutes, 2 secondsyou know, and that kind of [ __ ] you know? I mean, it’s Yeah. And and you know, you have to figure out what the hell they’re talking
26:0926 minutes, 9 secondsabout, you know, and so I appreciate which you never really do, but Yes.
26:1526 minutes, 15 secondsYeah. I mean, I appreciate a really good engineer, you know, and somebody who does understand how to how to make that
26:2326 minutes, 23 secondstranslation into whatever that means technically speaking, you know.
26:2926 minutes, 29 secondsYes. And I will add this to that conversation is that the tools that you have access to have a great deal to do with how good of an engineer you can become.
26:4026 minutes, 40 secondsUm, if you’re working with a focus right scarlet, things are only going to sound so good. Uh, if you’ve got a mic
26:4726 minutes, 47 secondscollection of the top vintage microphones ever made and you stick those in front of a great singer, that’s going to be wildly different than, you
26:5626 minutes, 56 secondsknow, a far lesser microphone and you had nothing to do with other than I know how to get proper signal uh, you know,
27:0427 minutes, 4 secondsit’s proper signal chain and I stuck this microphone in in front of someone instead of this microphone and suddenly you’re an amazing engineer. No, you’re a
27:1327 minutes, 13 secondscompetent engineer and you’ve got a great tool.
27:1527 minutes, 15 secondsWell, I mean, I I I don’t disagree with that at all, but I do also think that it’s really
27:2527 minutes, 25 secondswhat bugs me a lot of times is that people use that gear argument as a crutch. What I mean by that is, you
27:3427 minutes, 34 secondsknow, the whole idea of, well, I need this particular plugin because so and so used it on this or that, you know, or um, you know, I need to have this
27:4227 minutes, 42 secondsparticular preamp because it sounds, you know, because it’s the same, you know,
27:4627 minutes, 46 secondsthere’s a a little bit has to do with the gear and a little bit has to do with the hands that it’s in. You know, I mean, I can hand you Jeff Beck’s guitar,
27:5427 minutes, 54 secondsyou’re not going to play like him, you know.
27:5627 minutes, 56 secondsNo, I I’m not suggesting that it only takes the gear. I’m saying that if you’re a really good engineer and you
28:0328 minutes, 3 secondsput a shitty microphone in some in front of somebody and you put a vintage 251 in some in front of somebody and it’s meant
28:1028 minutes, 10 secondsto sound like a Selene Dion vocal or name an a Michael McDonald vocal, one way you’re going to get one thing and the other way you’re going to get
28:1828 minutes, 18 secondssomething entirely. That’s what I’m No question. No question. Um, it’s just that, you know, I’d also I I’ve also
28:2628 minutes, 26 secondsheard it said and I will agree that um I would rather have a brilliant engineer with mediocre gear than a [ __ ] engineer with great gear, you know.
28:3728 minutes, 37 secondsNo question about it. And I have worked with both, you know, haven’t we? Yes. And you know,
28:4428 minutes, 44 secondsand I’m sure I’ve been both of those things at one point or another. Haven’t we all?
28:5128 minutes, 51 secondsYeah. Um,
28:5428 minutes, 54 secondsyeah. I mean, and it’s funny when I don’t know if this ever happened to you, but the time where you needed to be
29:0229 minutes, 2 secondsthe best possible version of yourself doing this thing, you are placed in a situation where uh you’re not quite that
29:1029 minutes, 10 secondsyet and you really need to be because the person you’re sitting next to and working with requires and demands that
29:1829 minutes, 18 secondsuh and has always had that. And those are those growing and learning experiences that either set you moving
29:2529 minutes, 25 secondsforward or you’re done. Um Yeah. And and I’ve been in that situation a a few times. I have
29:3229 minutes, 32 secondstoo. Yeah. and and you can you know again you can either rise to the occasion and if you rise to the occasion
29:4229 minutes, 42 secondsto the occasion um you are probably terrified while you’re doing it and you’re doing your best to put on um what
29:4929 minutes, 49 secondsI call the client face you know and and no man no problem I got this you know whereas inside you going oh [ __ ] how do
29:5629 minutes, 56 secondsI do this you know um yeah been there I’ve got a great story with that exact moment the first time I
30:0430 minutes, 4 secondswas ever put in that position. Um, and it’s it’s one of those things where how how do all these things come together at
30:1330 minutes, 13 secondsthis exact moment and put you in a position where what happens there is going to dictate what happens from that
30:2130 minutes, 21 secondsmoment on period in your career. that happened to me and some and I was scared
30:2830 minutes, 28 secondsto death sitting next to an idol an idol of mine and it was either going to be
30:3530 minutes, 35 secondsthe the last day or the first day of the rest of my career. Fortunately, you obviously made it.
30:4330 minutes, 43 secondsThat seems so. And that person, this is back in 1995,
30:4830 minutes, 48 secondsis someone I’ve worked with ever since and still talk to regularly. And it’s the first album I ever bought. That’s
30:5730 minutes, 57 secondswho the artist is. The first album I ever bought. Wow.
31:0131 minutes, 1 secondSo when you talk when you talk about okay, how does this all come together?
31:0731 minutes, 7 secondsIt was that moment. So talk about fright. They were there for a week and I don’t think I said a word for five days
31:1631 minutes, 16 secondsbecause you’ve got your idol sitting next to you for five days. Uh, talk about scared out of your mind.
31:2331 minutes, 23 secondsYeah. You’re just sitting there sweating bullets and trying to make sure that you don’t screw anything up. That’s exactly what happened.
31:3031 minutes, 30 secondsYeah. Yeah. And I think that’s um, you know, again, it’s really it’s a matter of, okay, what do I need to focus on
31:3831 minutes, 38 secondshere right now? You know, I I need to focus on making sure that I do this right and that I pay attention to what’s
31:4431 minutes, 44 secondsgoing on and not get freaked out by what’s going on in front of me, you know?
31:5231 minutes, 52 secondsYes. And of course the personality of that person uh and how this goes has a lot to do with it. And fortunately I had somebody who liked to be a crackpot and
32:0232 minutes, 2 secondsfunny and uh you know was already very famous and didn’t you know it didn’t need to be a a
32:1032 minutes, 10 secondsa jerk. We’ll use that word. And fortunately that worked out well for me.
32:1632 minutes, 16 secondsThere’s plenty of people who would choose to be a complete ass in that situation. Yes. And I have been in front of those.
32:2732 minutes, 27 secondsWe all we all have. Um I have you know I don’t know how many stories you want to hear but I have so
32:3432 minutes, 34 secondsmany different uh different occasions where you are placed in front of the person you spent your life listening to
32:4332 minutes, 43 secondsand you can’t figure out how it came together and there they are and you go
32:4932 minutes, 49 secondshow is this possible and you have to make it happen. You have to make it happen. And if you’re lucky, that person
32:5832 minutes, 58 secondswill be like, “Okay, I see you’re nervous. Here’s how you do this, you know, or whatever.” Which is what happened to me, you know, being being
33:0633 minutes, 6 secondsconfronted with being the second to a really really legendary engineer producer, you know, and I could have completely screwed up and and, you know,
33:1533 minutes, 15 secondswiped the tape by accident, but I didn’t, you know, and and but I mean, you know, it’s Yeah. What do you do,
33:2233 minutes, 22 secondsright? I mean, I’ I’d love to hear, you know, I would love to hear what that was like for you.
33:2833 minutes, 28 secondsUh, well, I’ll tell you who it is because I’m not certainly not afraid of it or ashamed of it, but I’m mixing I
33:3533 minutes, 35 secondsdid a in in the very beginning I I had this now unbelievably famous smooth jazz artist, which, you know, some people
33:4233 minutes, 42 secondsthink is lame. Uh, these are some of the most talented people on the planet musically speaking. Guy’s name is Brian
33:4933 minutes, 49 secondsColbertson. He’s still one of the biggest. He was one of my very first clients. We had a record deal. Hugely talented guy.
33:5733 minutes, 57 secondsYeah.
33:5933 minutes, 59 secondsI did his first six records until he moved to California and then I did one a handful of years ago for the first time
34:0634 minutes, 6 secondsin a long time. I learned a lot working with him with him. I mean there uh I think the majority of what I learned
34:1334 minutes, 13 secondsmixing we learned together. Um but anyway, so Dave Caus who’s also another very famous smooj, I did a
34:2234 minutes, 22 secondscouple of his records and then he called me and said I’m doing this uh compilation album uh has a theme uh
34:3034 minutes, 30 secondsbased about uh fathers and their kids uh a father’s lullabi. And so I worked on this record and then I got a call um we
34:3834 minutes, 38 secondsjust got Michael McDonald to agree to do a song and I’m like oh [ __ ] Yeah.
34:4634 minutes, 46 secondsUh, and that was, you know, frightening.
34:5034 minutes, 50 secondsAnd here, here we are. And I get sent this Michael McDonald track.
34:5534 minutes, 55 secondsAnd Dave is like, um, Michael’s going to call you and just, you know, just talk about the track for two seconds and
35:0335 minutes, 3 secondsyou’ll mix it. And there there’s only there’s only one thing, you know, it to do this. It has to be, you know, it’s like on a Wednesday, Tuesday or
35:1135 minutes, 11 secondsWednesday. He’s like, “You have to have it done before Friday because he’s going out of town.” And I said, “Doesn’t matter cuz I’m going out of town on Saturday and I don’t care what it takes.
35:2135 minutes, 21 secondsI’m doing it.” They send me this track and then an hour later the phone rings and it’s Michael McDonald on the phone
35:2935 minutes, 29 secondsand you’re like out of your mind. You know, you’re just out of your mind. I went to every Doobie Brothers concert in the summer when when I was a teenager,
35:3835 minutes, 38 secondslike year after year after year. Uh, and here I here I am mixing this track and you can go find it on this album called The Father’s Lullabi and it’s called
35:4635 minutes, 46 secondsWhen Scarlet Smiles. And I get this track and it’s just gorgeous. And his vocal it’s and I mix this thing and I send it to him and he calls me back. Oh,
35:5635 minutes, 56 secondsI just got two tiny things. I’m like,
36:0236 minutes, 2 secondsyou know that moment and it’s two tiny things. and I do it and I send it back to him and he calls me back and it’s
36:1036 minutes, 10 secondslove it great and I’m like well that that goes with this the whole stereotype of you know those those
36:1636 minutes, 16 secondsclients being the easy ones whereas the you know the amateur $500 clients are the ones who come back with all the
36:2436 minutes, 24 secondsimpossible requests you know true that there’s a fun part of the end of this story he goes out of town on
36:3236 minutes, 32 secondsFriday we finish it just in the nick of time I’m going out of town on Saturday.
36:3736 minutes, 37 secondsI’m going to Hawaii on Saturday for a vacation. Get on a plane, fly to Hawaii, get off the plane, take a, you know,
36:4536 minutes, 45 secondstaxi to the hotel room, go to the hotel room, drop my bags in the hotel room,
36:4936 minutes, 49 secondsyou know, go down to the pool in Michael McDonald sitting in the hot tub.
36:5636 minutes, 56 secondsHad you already met by that point or only spoken on the phone? No. No.
37:0137 minutes, 1 secondYou introduced yourself to him at that point. I didn’t my and I’m think he probably thought I was stalking him
37:0937 minutes, 9 secondsbecause I had no idea where he was going. It was but you know it’s just this is how the world works sometimes and it doesn’t make sense.
37:1737 minutes, 17 secondsThat’s hilarious. Mhm.
37:1937 minutes, 19 secondsYou know, there’s his daughter Scarlet because the song’s called When Scarlet Smiles and he’s she’s in the hot tub with him and I introduce myself and
37:2637 minutes, 26 secondshe’s, you know, he’s on vacation. So, I don’t know how wildly interested he was in it, but uh you know, he was there all
37:3437 minutes, 34 secondsweek. So was I. That was the first and last time I talked to him. But how fun is that? Well, you know, at least he didn’t say,
37:4137 minutes, 41 seconds”Oh, God, you true.” Yeah. Yeah, fun stuff.
37:4937 minutes, 49 secondsYeah, I mean I um one of my very first sessions um after I got a gig at a major
37:5637 minutes, 56 secondsstudio um I was only supposed to be a tech and then they informed me that I was going to be the second engineer on a
38:0338 minutes, 3 secondssession and I found myself seconding for Peter Asher. Oh,
38:1038 minutes, 10 secondsso that is uh Paul’s base on the one.
38:1338 minutes, 13 secondsOh. Uh, if only actually I’m I’m told by my friend Pab,
38:1938 minutes, 19 secondswho is his front of house guy, that he has more than one. Um, oh, but no, that’s a righty, you know. Um,
38:2638 minutes, 26 secondseven though I am a lefty, I play righty.
38:2838 minutes, 28 secondsSo, no, that’s a that’s a that’s a knockoff. Although they I do love the way they sound. They really, you know, Peter Asher.
38:3538 minutes, 35 secondsYes. And Peter was uh I think he could tell that I was uh just a little bit nervous. Uh, I had done, you know, I had
38:4538 minutes, 45 secondsbeen at I had been working at the studio for about two weeks and this was uh this was a studio that had um four of the
38:5338 minutes, 53 secondssame console and they were Trident A ranges and the A- range is thankfully a really
39:0039 minuteseasy to operate and very sensible console. You know, the signal flow makes sense at all, you know, and and I had
39:0839 minutes, 8 secondscome up like yourself, you know, on a four track. Uh, I started with a little TAK 2A mixer and then went to a um then
39:1739 minutes, 17 secondswent to a TAC AMX mixer. So, you know, I I understood the analog signal flow, so I knew kind of what I was doing, but um
39:2639 minutes, 26 secondsI believe I was persspiring heavily.
39:3139 minutes, 31 secondsI would I would hope so. I’d be worried about you if you weren’t. and and you know and he was absolutely wonderful,
39:3939 minutes, 39 secondsyou know, and I’m sure he probably remembers nothing about it if I ran into him today, you know, 40 years later, you know,
39:4839 minutes, 48 secondsof course, same thing with Michael McDonald.
39:5039 minutes, 50 secondsYeah. Uh what what an experience that had to Exactly. And and you know, same thing.
39:5439 minutes, 54 secondsI’m I’m I’m sitting there with the guy who produced James Taylor, you know, and I’m I’m like,
40:0140 minutes, 1 secondwhich by the way is my favorite artist of all time. I um you know I had an interesting runin with him. Um I uh I
40:1040 minutes, 10 secondsused to work the Montro Jazz Festival every summer and uh I I’m usually because I had
40:1640 minutes, 16 secondsworked at major studios. I learned early on not to fanboy out. You know, I had um I had lived in San Francisco and hung
40:2440 minutes, 24 secondsout with Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane and I was, you know, I was very very proud of the fact that I wasn’t like starruck around too many people
40:3340 minutes, 33 secondsother than Ringo. Um but uh you know, I I normally just say, “Hey, how you doing?” and try and, you know, treat him
40:4140 minutes, 41 secondslike everybody else. But I I ran into him at badge pickup um backstage at
40:4840 minutes, 48 secondsMontro. And I just I had to I walked up to him. I said, “You know, just got to introduce myself and tell you, you know,
40:5440 minutes, 54 secondsthat uh Fire and Rain was the second song I ever learned on guitar.” And I expected him to just go, “H, cool.” You know, and no, he he got really excited
41:0441 minutes, 4 secondsand he said, “Did you did you know, did you do the double pull off? know, everybody messes that part up, you know,
41:0941 minutes, 9 secondsand really got into this animated wonderful discussion with me. And years later, I I met and I’m still very
41:1741 minutes, 17 secondsgood friends with his longtime front of house engineer, David Morgan. And I told David about that. He said,
41:2341 minutes, 23 seconds”Yeah, that’s that’s James. He is one of the most downtoear, friendly people living.
41:2941 minutes, 29 secondsHe’s he’s humble and he’s nice. in fact shy. I would go as far as to say I fortunate to have met him a few times.
41:4041 minutes, 40 secondsUh when I when I finally figured out because I I started playing guitar when I was 13. Terrible, you know, open chord
41:4741 minutes, 47 secondsguitar player uh with a with a Fender pick medium. Terrible. and I taught myself guitar and because I was such a
41:5541 minutes, 55 secondsJames Taylor fan and finally somewhere late college years or maybe shortly after I’m like, “Okay, this is my
42:0342 minutes, 3 secondsfavorite artist in the world. Here I have this stupid tack of mini guitar.”
42:0842 minutes, 8 secondsUh, it’s time to learn to do something more than play C, G, D, E, and A. Uh,
42:1642 minutes, 16 secondswell, that that’ll get you through fire and rain. It will. You don’t even need the C. Uh,
42:2442 minutes, 24 secondsand I I started finally, you know, looking for any kind of video that I could ever find. And, uh, I grew my fingernails.
42:3442 minutes, 34 secondsThey’re still here. They’re on me now.
42:3642 minutes, 36 secondsUh, and I spent an endless amount of time learning how to play finger style guitar.
42:4442 minutes, 44 secondsAnd you would watch enough videos uh later on that if you’re going to play James Taylor, you got to learn that you got to play the D backwards. Yes.
42:5342 minutes, 53 secondsWhich I do. Yes. Which I do.
42:5642 minutes, 56 secondsUh and now I can’t play it normal without it feeling really wrong. And uh
43:0343 minutes, 3 secondsif you and I were in the same room with James Taylor and we both picked up an
43:1043 minutes, 10 secondsOlsson guitar, you would be slightly hardressed to know which one it was. Uh
43:1843 minutes, 18 secondsbecause that’s how much I’ve studied that. Uh now I’m not going to claim to be that, but if you don’t know what you’re listening to, if it’s my wife,
43:2743 minutes, 27 secondsshe would have no idea.
43:2843 minutes, 28 secondsI love it. uh you would probably know uh a guitar player would know. Short of that, you’d have a hard time knowing. Um
43:3743 minutes, 37 secondsand another fun fact in 87 uh 89 89
43:4443 minutes, 44 secondsuh I learned I it took forever to figure out what is that O on the headstock of his guitar. What what I’ve never seen
43:5243 minutes, 52 secondsthat before. And after a lot of research, I finally figured it out. And uh Jim Olsen uh is the maker of those
44:0244 minutes, 2 secondsguitars and I had to have one. And back then in 1989 they were $3,000. Yeah, that’s pricey.
44:0944 minutes, 9 secondsThey were uh I now have Do I dare say how many? Uh
44:1744 minutes, 17 secondsJim and I are are you know quite well acquainted. We’ve gone to a few James Taylor concerts together where I’ve
44:2444 minutes, 24 secondsgotten to be backstage and and hang out um and meet him several times. One, you know, working with him has been, you
44:3144 minutes, 31 secondsknow, there’s the dream that’s now not going to happen. But um yeah, so I have a few of those and I’m envious. No,
44:4244 minutes, 42 secondsthey uh you know, they start at $33,000 today.
44:4644 minutes, 46 secondsI’ve never played one, but I’ve heard that they are one of a kind. It’s like it’s like nothing else. Um, you know,
44:5444 minutes, 54 secondsinch and 3/4 wide, you know, at the nut. So, it’s not like playing at, you know, a Martin. And once you get used to that,
45:0145 minutes, 1 secondeverything else and one and 116 is too way too narrow. You can’t play finger style on that guitar because the strings are too close together.
45:1045 minutes, 10 secondsUh,
45:1245 minutes, 12 secondsyeah. And here, we’ll share another fun story. I’m in I’m in uh Italy with a friend
45:2145 minutes, 21 secondsuh specifically to go see James Taylor uh at St. Mark’s Square that that
45:2845 minutes, 28 secondsevening. And uh that afternoon I’m just walking around. It’s packed. The square
45:3545 minutes, 35 secondsis packed. And I’m just walking around and I you know kind of avoiding you know trying to not run into people. That’s
45:4245 minutes, 42 secondshow packed it is. I avoid one person and hit the next literally. And guess who it is? Really?
45:5045 minutes, 50 secondsYes.
45:5245 minutes, 52 secondsHave the picture. I ran literally right into him. Literally had a fiveminute conversation. It reminded him who I was
46:0046 minutesbecause, you know, regardless of the number of times I’ve been backstage with him and Jim Olsen. Uh yeah, just why why
46:0846 minutes, 8 secondswhy do these very strange coincidences happen in this business? Because you you couldn’t plan that if you wanted to.
46:1646 minutes, 16 secondsyou. And it’s funny really, you know,
46:1846 minutes, 18 secondsjust the whole idea of even meeting your idols, you know, your your your youthful idols, so to speak, you know, it’s it’s
46:2546 minutes, 25 secondssomething that I mean, it it blows my mind that it’s happened to me as many times as it has, you know, as even
46:3246 minutes, 32 secondsthough we’re in the biz, you know, I mean, it’s it’s it’s amazing and it’s great that it you’ve had that experience. It’s
46:4046 minutes, 40 secondshappened to me with my three with my three favorite artists of all time. All of them. And I know lots of people who
46:4846 minutes, 48 secondsare sitting around dreaming. I’ve never gotten to work with anyone I’ve really loved. I’ve worked with famous people,
46:5346 minutes, 53 secondsbut no one that I grew up listening to and, you know, lived and died by. Uh,
46:5846 minutes, 58 secondsand it’s happened with my top three. And it’s crazy. Well, I um I I did meet one
47:0447 minutes, 4 secondsof my other all-time favorite uh and and heavy influences. Uh and and that was an odd one. I um I was a big Al Cooper fan.
47:1547 minutes, 15 secondsUh you know, Blood, Sweat, and Tears, the original Blood, Sweat, and Tears, the Only Good album. Um and uh you know,
47:2247 minutes, 22 secondsBlues Project and and uh Super Session and all that stuff. And I I was walking through a NAM show and I saw Al.
47:3047 minutes, 30 secondsI walked up to him and I introduced myself and I said, “Just just want you to know, you know,” I’m shaking his hand and I said, “I just want you to know,
47:3647 minutes, 36 secondsyou know, you were a major influence on my decision to pursue a career in the music industry.” Doesn’t miss a beat.
47:4647 minutes, 46 secondsKeeps shaking my hand and says, “Don’t blame me, man.” The the perfect response. Yes.
47:5547 minutes, 55 secondsYes. Well, and and I I have learned since that he’s he’s quite the irassable individual. Um I don’t know if Have you ever read his book?
48:0548 minutes, 5 secondsNo.
48:0648 minutes, 6 secondsUh I like that you think I’ve had time to read a book in the last 33.
48:1048 minutes, 10 secondsUh I Well, it’s interesting. His his book his the the title of his book will give you an idea of of his personality.
48:1848 minutes, 18 secondsIt’s called Backstage Passes and Backstapping Bastards. Yeah, I like that. Sounds about right.
48:2648 minutes, 26 secondsYeah. And it does describe the industry quite quite accurately. Yeah. You know,
48:3148 minutes, 31 secondsbut um but I’m I’m um I’m interested in how for you this um this has played out
48:4048 minutes, 40 secondsin terms of um you know your your own personal decisions in terms of what you’ve done with your life. I mean obviously you’ve had an enviable career.
48:5248 minutes, 52 secondsYeah. I mean the the first 25 years have been a little more exciting than the last five uh given the state of the music industry.
49:0249 minutes, 2 secondsYeah, that that’s where I’m leading with this. You know, it’s like how do you how do you feel about things now?
49:0849 minutes, 8 secondsWell, let let’s go back to the original question because it’s something I’ve spent a lot of time uh I’ve asked that exact question of myself many times. And
49:1649 minutes, 16 secondshow do you square when you spend when I say your life as you know if you choose this business
49:2449 minutes, 24 secondsthen you’re in a you’re in a studio way more hours than you’re not and I’ve spent the first you know I’ve
49:3249 minutes, 32 secondsspent let’s just go all the way I’ve spent my entire 33y year career
49:3949 minutes, 39 secondsdoing this at literally almost the expense of everything else I’ve been to Europe once to see James
49:4749 minutes, 47 secondsTaylor and I was there for a handful of days. I’ve been on a handful of occasion vacations, nothing extravagant and
49:5649 minutes, 56 secondseverything has been built around meeting demands and expectations of clients for 33 years at the expense of everything else.
50:0550 minutes, 5 secondsExactly. And then you get to this point in life at 33 years later and you ask yourself the question,
50:1350 minutes, 13 secondshave I missed out on life or am I unbelievably lucky?
50:1750 minutes, 17 secondsAnd I don’t know if there’s an answer. I haven’t come up with one.
50:2150 minutes, 21 secondsI’ve always thought it was a little bit of both, you know. I mean if it because it it’s funny to me you know we talk to
50:2750 minutes, 27 secondsother people who are let’s say not in the biz and you know to them we live
50:3450 minutes, 34 secondsthis enviable life you know and oh you’ve gotten to work with all these great people and you you know blah blah blah and yet you know essentially I mean
50:4450 minutes, 44 secondsI have worked in legendary rooms in London in Germany in you know all over
50:5350 minutes, 53 secondsthe US and yet I’m still in a room with no windows in front of a [ __ ]
50:5750 minutes, 57 secondsconsole, you know, and does it really I mean it, you know, and yes, you’re doing exactly the same thing. You know, you’re you’re having, you know, pizza at
51:0551 minutes, 5 secondsmidnight and you’re you’re working your ass off. You’re not getting proper sleep. And, you know, is it really a
51:1351 minutes, 13 secondslife? I don’t know. I mean, it’s it’s different. You know,
51:1651 minutes, 16 secondsthat’s that’s exactly my question. And I I don’t know if there’s an answer. And and like you said, I think it’s a little bit of both. You know, there’s people,
51:2551 minutes, 25 secondsas you said, there’s people that hear what you do, they don’t really understand it. You explain to them,
51:2951 minutes, 29 secondsyou’ve spent your life in this windowless room, and you’ve worked with this person, and this person, and this one’s great, and this one’s a jerk, and and and it seems like it’s unbelievably
51:3851 minutes, 38 secondsadmirable. And then they tell you about all the trips they’ve been on, and they spent two weeks in Europe, and they’ve done this, and they’ve done that. And
51:4551 minutes, 45 secondsI’m like, I haven’t gotten to do any of that. And by the way, when I make a joke about reading books, I haven’t had time to read books in 33 years. And oh, did you go to the theater to see this movie?
51:5651 minutes, 56 secondsNo.
51:5851 minutes, 58 secondsI haven’t watched TV in 20 years, you know, except but once in a while when I’m over at a friend’s house, I might watch TV, but I got a TV downstairs. I never watch it,
52:0752 minutes, 7 secondsyou know. Yeah.
52:0952 minutes, 9 secondsSo my point is my life has been nothing like any of my friends and they think mine’s mine is great and then I hear
52:1752 minutes, 17 secondsabout the stuff they get to do and they get paid to take a vacation. I don’t get paid to take a vacation. If I take a
52:2552 minutes, 25 secondsvacation, sorry pal, you’re not making an income that week or two. So there isn’t there isn’t the time. If you’re
52:3252 minutes, 32 secondsfortunate and you’re busy and you’re working with great artists, there isn’t the time and there isn’t the ability
52:3952 minutes, 39 secondsbecause you can’t you can’t stop for a multitude of reasons. Yeah.
52:4452 minutes, 44 secondsAnd yeah, I feel like I’ve been unbelievably lucky and at the same time I feel like I’ve missed out on half a life and I don’t know which is better or which is worse. I really don’t. And you
52:5352 minutes, 53 secondsknow to an extent also I mean you just you just alluded to something else which is that when you’re in the studio
53:0053 minutesworking on this project or that to a certain extent you’re auditioning for the next one. You know you you can’t really slow down.
53:0853 minutes, 8 secondsYeah. You you you know people that leads me to a slightly interesting
53:1453 minutes, 14 secondspoint that we’ll touch on right now. Um why don’t you I’ll hear this. they don’t
53:2253 minutes, 22 secondsreally know. Why don’t you just, you know, do it quickly? And I’m like,
53:2653 minutes, 26 secondsbecause it’s the people that generally don’t get your best work that spread
53:3353 minutes, 33 secondsthis to the most people. And so, there’s never a single time if you care about
53:4053 minutes, 40 secondsyour career, there is not one gig you can do a half-ass job, right? Because it’s going to get somewhere.
53:4953 minutes, 49 secondsAnd the stuff that you do amazing work with is going to get to somebody. And if you take one opportunity, one, to do a
53:5853 minutes, 58 secondshalf-ass job, it’s going to affect what happens next every single time. Yeah. Yeah.
54:0554 minutes, 5 secondsAnd so many people don’t understand that. So when I take three days to do a single mix and I have four other people,
54:1154 minutes, 11 secondswhy don’t you just vote that one in? Why are you spending three days on something that’s not amazing? And that’s the
54:1854 minutes, 18 secondsanswer because it’s my work, not their work. It’s my work.
54:2454 minutes, 24 secondsEven though Even though the irony of that is that they will get the credit for it more than we will, you know, it’s
54:3254 minutes, 32 secondstheir name on the album as they say, you know. Yes, it’s true. But at the same time,
54:3854 minutes, 38 secondsit’s we don’t I I I never I never have not taken something to the point of extremely serious to a detriment.
54:4954 minutes, 49 secondsYes. Yes. Exactly. But yeah, you know, it’s really it’s really true as you say. I mean,
54:5654 minutes, 56 secondsyou know, the grass is greener as they say, you know, it’s it’s really we are we are envious of those people who are envious of us, you know, and you know,
55:0755 minutes, 7 secondsobviously, I mean, you can’t compare yourself to anybody else. We’re all on a different trajectory and we’re all, you know, on our own path and all of those
55:1355 minutes, 13 secondswonderful, you know, lovely sayings and everything. But it’s really true, man. I mean, what we do is very enviable, but
55:2255 minutes, 22 secondsit’s also it’s it’s rarified and not necessarily in a good way.
55:3055 minutes, 30 secondsNo, it’s I when I finally hang it up, I’m going to have a lot of deep thought about was
55:3755 minutes, 37 secondsthe pain of it all worth and the sacrifice of it all worth the end result. And I I’m going to spend a lot of time thinking about that.
55:4955 minutes, 49 secondsI really am. And it I think people will probably listen to this and go, “Oh, please.” Uh,
55:5655 minutes, 56 secondsand I don’t I guess I don’t blame them if they do, but what I do and what I put myself through is torturous. It really is.
56:0656 minutes, 6 secondsYeah. Yeah, we do. You know, and and that’s part of it, too, is, you know, I mean, yeah, people can can look at you and say, “Oh, you whiny bastard.” you
56:1356 minutes, 13 secondsknow, but honestly, I mean, a lot I I don’t think that a lot of people would have the mental
56:2256 minutes, 22 secondswherewithal to do a lot of what you do and, you know, this kind of work
56:2956 minutes, 29 secondsand it’s I mean, yeah, I think there is I’m sure I’m sure writing songs and producing songs and being an artist is
56:3756 minutes, 37 secondsjust as difficult because that time period of success is even shorter. Generally speaking,
56:4356 minutes, 43 secondsthat’s true. That’s true. Because you can only do it when you’re young and pretty. Yeah.
56:4856 minutes, 48 secondsYeah. So, that’s even probably harder to deal with mentally, but it’s just a torturous Maybe it’s just all creative
56:5556 minutes, 55 secondsarts. I I I don’t know. But, um it’s it’s it’s not the easy way to go. Well,
57:0257 minutes, 2 secondsyou know, and that that also points to the whole the the whole fickle nature of the creative process because, you know,
57:0957 minutes, 9 secondswhere do those ideas come from and are we really in control of it, you know? I mean, I’m I’m always envious of these artists who can just conjure [ __ ] up,
57:1857 minutes, 18 secondsyou know, and and always create something brilliant. And and you know,
57:2257 minutes, 22 secondsthe truth of the matter is almost every great artist that you look at, they have a period of time where they’re really
57:3057 minutes, 30 secondsputting out this wonderful, wonderful stuff, and then for the most part, they kind of get to a point where they’re not hungry anymore, you know, and the the
57:3857 minutes, 38 secondstalent if they’re famous enough, they don’t need to. But I can’t imagine I can’t imagine
57:4657 minutes, 46 secondsI let’s put this way. I would be envious of someone who could be that talented,
57:5157 minutes, 51 secondsmake a ton of money in a reasonable period of time and being okay with stopping. That’s the part right there. Yeah.
57:5957 minutes, 59 secondsAnd because one could argue, and it’s a discussion that happens in this household of when’s enough, and I’m
58:0758 minutes, 7 secondslike, I can’t if I could walk away and feel okay, maybe I would at some point.
58:1458 minutes, 14 secondsI can’t I can’t figure out how and when that could happen because it becomes part of who we are.
58:2158 minutes, 21 secondsAnd I and I have this beautiful room and I’ve spent a lifetime getting to this point and just say, “Okay, that’s enough.”
58:3058 minutes, 30 secondsThen what?
58:3258 minutes, 32 secondsYou know, I mean, that’s that’s the thing. I mean, I think about that, too.
58:3558 minutes, 35 secondsI I I don’t fish. I don’t golf. You know, I mean,
58:4058 minutes, 40 secondswho has time for you? Look, if you had time for hobbies over this course of the year, I would like to know where you found it and what it is.
58:4658 minutes, 46 secondsWell, you know, now it’s funny because uh you know, a lot of my colleagues in the industry, for example, they golf,
58:5458 minutes, 54 secondsokay, I did try and play golf and I discovered that I really suck at it. Um, and also that I just didn’t enjoy it,
59:0159 minutes, 1 secondyou know? I mean 4 hours a 4-hour commitment to something that’s not fun is you know I mean I could spend that time doing something I do enjoy but
59:1159 minutes, 11 secondsthere are people for whom that’s a release and it’s a it’s a pastime and you know I’m I’m sure that there are
59:1859 minutes, 18 secondspeople who finally get to the point of going okay now I’m going to retire quote unquote and I’m gonna you know whatever it is and you know I talk to a lot of my
59:2859 minutes, 28 secondscolleagues like you know for example um the teachers you know, because I I teach college and there are a lot of these people who are
59:3659 minutes, 36 secondsready to retire and they are ready to then step away from the industry and go do something. I
59:4559 minutes, 45 secondsdon’t know. I don’t know what that something is. I haven’t gotten to that point. I don’t know what else I want to do besides what I do.
59:5359 minutes, 53 secondsI have bad news for you. I have bad news for you. There isn’t. Thanks.
1:00:011 hour, 1 secondBecause if there was, you would already know what it is. I’m sorry to say. Yeah. And so would I. Yeah.
1:00:081 hour, 8 secondsLook, and let let me guess. Um, you tell me if this is true. Uh, my wife will say to me, “Why don’t you?” Because she’ll
1:00:151 hour, 15 secondssay, “Isn’t there something else you like?” And then we’ll have that conversation. And it’s like, “What am I doing when I’m not sitting in front of
1:00:231 hour, 23 secondstwo speakers with hands-on faders? I’m in a living room playing a guitar for Christ’s sake. Yep.
1:00:321 hour, 32 secondsYep. That’s what you do with your free time. Like, hell yeah, it is. Yeah.
1:00:381 hour, 38 secondsThere’s two of them sitting on stands in the living room. And you know, how much conversation did it take to be okay with having guitar stands in the living room?
1:00:461 hour, 46 secondsYeah, I have my room. This is my This is my space here, you know, and this is where everything is. And And you know, it’s funny.
1:00:541 hour, 54 secondsBut come on, man. I need one in every room.
1:00:571 hour, 57 secondsWell, it’s it’s funny because when my kids were growing up, I used that as an excuse to buy a piano so that we could
1:01:041 hour, 1 minute, 4 secondshave one in the the living room because I wanted my kids to, you know, be encouraged to and and by the way, my kids want nothing to do with music.
1:01:161 hour, 1 minute, 16 secondsSmart, you know. Um, in fact, my my my older one has become a psychologist. So, yeah.
1:01:231 hour, 1 minute, 23 secondsWell, yeah. I don’t know what that says about you. That’s I’d be a little worried.
1:01:281 hour, 1 minute, 28 secondsWell, uh you know, she’s still getting her doctorate right now, but uh I do remember when she was um still going for
1:01:351 hour, 1 minute, 35 secondsher masters. Uh we got in an elevator together one time and I pressed the button that says, you know, close doors and she looked at me and she said, “Dad,
1:01:441 hour, 1 minute, 44 secondsyou realize that button does nothing, right?”
1:01:501 hour, 1 minute, 50 secondsSo, you know, I mean, they they definitely they they figure out right away what’s wrong with us. We’re just nutcases and obsessive. But but no,
1:01:591 hour, 1 minute, 59 secondsyou’re right. I mean, for me at least,
1:02:031 hour, 2 minutes, 3 secondsthere’s nothing else I really want to do. And, you know, how does that play out, man? I mean, you know, and and and
1:02:111 hour, 2 minutes, 11 secondsso that so that then leads to the the follow-up question, which is now we’re in a situation where the the industry
1:02:201 hour, 2 minutes, 20 secondshas is now unrecognizable from what we came up in. The technology uh you know, one of the things that I
1:02:271 hour, 2 minutes, 27 secondssort of I’m I’m fascinated by, but I lament the idea that the technology has evolved to the point where it’s
1:02:341 hour, 2 minutes, 34 secondscompletely changed the process. You know, the the technology now drives the art. We have an undo key. We don’t have to cut tape. We don’t have to commit.
1:02:451 hour, 2 minutes, 45 secondsEven though I still encourage my students to commit when they do a track,
1:02:491 hour, 2 minutes, 49 secondsyou know, but you can do 46 vocal tracks and comp it into little tiny pieces and make it sound normal, you know. So,
1:02:571 hour, 2 minutes, 57 secondswell, you can’t make it sound normal.
1:02:581 hour, 2 minutes, 58 secondsThat’s Well, normal by their standards. That that’s a whole other conversation. And I agree with you. Yeah,
1:03:071 hour, 3 minutes, 7 secondsI have so much to say about this topic and uh this could be another two-hour podcast, huh? And um
1:03:161 hour, 3 minutes, 16 secondsit’s it’s tricky times as you know for professionals. Yeah.
1:03:201 hour, 3 minutes, 20 secondsFor for you know there’s there’s these days where you wake up and go, “Oh my god, am I is it me?” And then you
1:03:281 hour, 3 minutes, 28 secondsrealize no, it’s every one of us going through it. Every single one. There isn’t a single one of us pros that are
1:03:371 hour, 3 minutes, 37 secondssitting here with m maybe Serban may maybe he’s the only one or Manny maybe
1:03:461 hour, 3 minutes, 46 secondsmaybe um well just did the uh Charlie Puth
1:03:521 hour, 3 minutes, 52 secondsrecord um so maybe and I don’t know it and and you go okay well it’s it’s not me
1:04:011 hour, 4 minutes, 1 secondit’s the industry and there’s no There’s no fixing it. There’s no coming back.
1:04:061 hour, 4 minutes, 6 secondsAnd I’ve been fortunate where I don’t get label calls every single day, but I’ve been non-stop busy for the past seven months.
1:04:131 hour, 4 minutes, 13 secondsYes, you are. For Yeah.
1:04:161 hour, 4 minutes, 16 secondsAnd so I I realize that, but part of that seven months has been a client that’s done two and a half projects with
1:04:231 hour, 4 minutes, 23 secondsone client. So, um, what if that person wasn’t there doing that? I’ve had plenty of other work. I’ve been very fortunate
1:04:321 hour, 4 minutes, 32 secondsthis year. Um, I’ve got a little thing coming up that’s going to take me out of work uh for three weeks to deal with
1:04:391 hour, 4 minutes, 39 secondssomething. And then I had a project that was supposed to start an album project and that’s been put on indefinite hold.
1:04:471 hour, 4 minutes, 47 secondsAnd so now I’m going for the first time in seven, eight months going what what’s going to happen at that moment?
1:04:561 hour, 4 minutes, 56 secondsYeah. Um, and I know I know it’s not just me, but it doesn’t feel that way when it’s happen.
1:05:021 hour, 5 minutes, 2 secondsDoesn’t feel that way when it’s happening to you. And you know, look,
1:05:061 hour, 5 minutes, 6 secondsthere are artists out there who have literally taken their own lives out of frustration for stuff like this. You know,
1:05:121 hour, 5 minutes, 12 secondsdid you did you see that uh Russ Hughes thing that he posted about this morning?
1:05:191 hour, 5 minutes, 19 secondsAnd what did I do? the dumbest thing you could possibly do this morning at seven o’clock in the morning. I listened to it.
1:05:291 hour, 5 minutes, 29 secondsBoy, was that dumb.
1:05:301 hour, 5 minutes, 30 secondsIt’s depressing because as if I didn’t already know I had to listen to it. I had to hear it from somebody else. And if for people that don’t know what we’re talking
1:05:381 hour, 5 minutes, 38 secondsabout, it’s a whole podcast on what has happened to the industry and what are people doing and how it’s affecting
1:05:451 hour, 5 minutes, 45 secondspeople’s mental health to the point of taking their own lives.
1:05:491 hour, 5 minutes, 49 secondsYeah. And you know and and even if you know even if it doesn’t get to that extreme the point is that there are people who have left the industry there
1:05:581 hour, 5 minutes, 58 secondsare people who have you know I mean I know a lot of people who have wisely sort of redirected you know gone into uh
1:06:061 hour, 6 minutes, 6 secondsyou know post-prouction or you know live sound or whatever you know I mean there are but but I think that’s just a stop
1:06:141 hour, 6 minutes, 14 secondsgap because you know the thing to me and I’m interested in your thoughts on this too is that the technology has really
1:06:221 hour, 6 minutes, 22 secondschanged. I mean, you’re not going to get that toothpaste back in the tube. The technology has changed everything we do to the point where we’re not really doing what we used to do.
1:06:341 hour, 6 minutes, 34 secondsWell, let let’s talk about that from the standpoint of we’re not doing what we used to do because of what technology has done. A lot of that is not because of us.
1:06:431 hour, 6 minutes, 43 secondsNot at all.
1:06:441 hour, 6 minutes, 44 secondsBecause uh it’s not that we don’t choose to do that. We are not given the product in order to enable us to do what we do.
1:06:541 hour, 6 minutes, 54 secondsThat’s what I mean. Yes.
1:06:551 hour, 6 minutes, 55 secondsAnd um this is not going to be a popular opinion uh or taken easily from people
1:07:021 hour, 7 minutes, 2 secondswho are in this uh particular phase of their lives.
1:07:081 hour, 7 minutes, 8 secondsThe current situation and forgive me for those of you that aren’t going to like what they’re about to hear.
1:07:151 hour, 7 minutes, 15 secondsThe current technology in the world has given people who don’t deserve to have
1:07:211 hour, 7 minutes, 21 secondsthe tools in their hands making music because they can buy Logic for $199 and
1:07:301 hour, 7 minutes, 30 secondsa handful of plugins and a keyboard with not a lot of skill.
1:07:371 hour, 7 minutes, 37 secondsAnd then you go to their Instagram page and it says producer, mixer, mastering engineer, right?
1:07:431 hour, 7 minutes, 43 secondsAnd I’m like, first of all, every one of those is a career. You don’t get to have three of them just by writing producer,
1:07:511 hour, 7 minutes, 51 secondsmixer, mastering engineer in your Instagram profile and you’re doing it on a laptop on your dining room table, right?
1:07:581 hour, 7 minutes, 58 secondsAnd the and I’ve said this on my Instagram story. It’s like if you want to be taken seriously as someone in
1:08:071 hour, 8 minutes, 7 secondstheir 20s in this industry, the first thing you need to do is remove three of those titles because nothing makes you
1:08:141 hour, 8 minutes, 14 secondssound more uh incapable than claiming you’re an expert at three things when each one of those things is a career,
1:08:221 hour, 8 minutes, 22 secondsnot something you type in an Instagram profile. And people don’t like hearing it, but it’s the truth. You cannot be a
1:08:301 hour, 8 minutes, 30 secondshigh A-list level producer, an A-list level uh A-list uh you know mixer, and you can’t be an A-list mastering
1:08:391 hour, 8 minutes, 39 secondsengineer on top of it. That’s three lifetimes, my friend. Sorry to say. Um
1:08:471 hour, 8 minutes, 47 secondsand then you get, you know, delivered stems, which already just by saying delivered stems. Okay. We already don’t
1:08:561 hour, 8 minutes, 56 secondsknow what we’re talking about when we use that phrase. That hurts.
1:08:591 hour, 8 minutes, 59 secondsYou were You were Yeah. And I’ve given up. I’ve just given up. I I tried to fight it for a long time and now I’ve
1:09:071 hour, 9 minutes, 7 secondsjust given up. But uh and you get these things and you you know what they would have been if they
1:09:141 hour, 9 minutes, 14 secondswent to a a real tracking engineer in a real studio with real gear and and done properly versus what we get now.
1:09:251 hour, 9 minutes, 25 secondsAnd then you get into arguments with these Go ahead. Go ahead.
1:09:311 hour, 9 minutes, 31 secondsBut the expectation is here’s my favorite artist. This is what I want it to sound like. But you didn’t record it
1:09:371 hour, 9 minutes, 37 secondsthat way. It’s never going to sound like this. I’m sorry. I could work on this from now until doomsday. It’s going to be a hell of a lot better than it was,
1:09:471 hour, 9 minutes, 47 secondsbut it’s not going to be this because it wasn’t done with those people and those tools. Yeah. And it’s a hard thing to manage in here.
1:09:571 hour, 9 minutes, 57 secondsIt is. It is. And then, you know, you you voice an opinion like that and you get, you know, you get people who have
1:10:051 hour, 10 minutes, 5 secondsnever miked a drum set in their lives arguing with you about, “Okay, Boomer,
1:10:111 hour, 10 minutes, 11 secondsyou know, this is not the way we make music anymore. Now, you know, it doesn’t matter what drum mics I use because I can just buy samples and I, you know,
1:10:191 hour, 10 minutes, 19 secondsand it’s it’s it’s a very very frustrating thing to try and Yeah, it’s
1:10:261 hour, 10 minutes, 26 secondsit’s beyond frustrating and um I I you know, I use this term Dunning Krueger effect quite a bit because
1:10:351 hour, 10 minutes, 35 secondsthe expertise people think they have because they have a laptop, you know,
1:10:401 hour, 10 minutes, 40 secondsand and then you see all these people with their laptop top and their monitor and their keyboard and their mouse calling themselves mixers. Okay, I’m
1:10:481 hour, 10 minutes, 48 secondssorry. The tape the tape isn’t rolling and you’re drawing in automation curves,
1:10:531 hour, 10 minutes, 53 secondsbut you’re probably not because you compress it to the point where it doesn’t need automation because it’s all just this. Yes. The frustration level is like, you know,
1:11:031 hour, 11 minutes, 3 secondsyou need faders and music is an artistic endeavor where you create emotion
1:11:101 hour, 11 minutes, 10 secondswith faders. That’s what I do. And that doesn’t exist anymore 99 out of a
1:11:171 hour, 11 minutes, 17 secondshundred times because you can’t do that with the tape stopped.
1:11:241 hour, 11 minutes, 24 secondsYeah. Yeah. So, so and now every one of your younger listeners is going, “This old guy, he doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking
1:11:311 hour, 11 minutes, 31 secondsabout. That’s like, that’s not how we do it.” Right.
1:11:351 hour, 11 minutes, 35 secondsWell, unfortunately, you wouldn’t get to live in that period of time where it is how we do it. And and Here’s a perfect
1:11:421 hour, 11 minutes, 42 secondsexample. I see I’m getting all ramped up about this because it means so much to me. Go listen to a Ledard Zeppelin
1:11:501 hour, 11 minutes, 50 secondsrecord and go, they didn’t have automation, right?
1:11:551 hour, 11 minutes, 55 secondsAnd that’s what that sounds like. How did they do that?
1:11:591 hour, 11 minutes, 59 secondsThey didn’t have automation and they had maybe two compressors in the whole studio. You know, that’s the thing, too.
1:12:051 hour, 12 minutes, 5 secondsAnd you know how they did it? They really knew what they were doing. the guys sitting in front of this thing. Uh,
1:12:131 hour, 12 minutes, 13 secondsnot just that, not just that, but also they made those musicians practice the
1:12:211 hour, 12 minutes, 21 secondstunes and hone the tunes. I mean, I can’t speak highly enough about the need for pre-production. And that is another thing that has, you know, gone by the wayside because no, man, we can fix it.
1:12:321 hour, 12 minutes, 32 secondsI don’t need to bring my agame anymore because I have unlimited tracks, you know, whereas, you know, and I’ve I’ve said this and I’ve ranted about this
1:12:401 hour, 12 minutes, 40 secondsone, you know, it’s like it’s a hell of a lot better if you only have two tracks to do that vocal, you know, if you’re
1:12:481 hour, 12 minutes, 48 secondslucky. And I can do it better. Are you sure? You know, because if you do,
1:12:531 hour, 12 minutes, 53 secondsyou’re going to, you know, I mean, these are the kind of things that I think you don’t have anymore. And that’s a challenge too, you know,
1:13:011 hour, 13 minutes, 1 secondand and so yeah, I wonder I wonder how that is for you in this day and age. I
1:13:091 hour, 13 minutes, 9 secondsmean, does it does it sap the desire to create now?
1:13:151 hour, 13 minutes, 15 secondsIt’s I’m just going to be completely honest because I think that’s what you want to hear. It’s so painful. It’s so
1:13:211 hour, 13 minutes, 21 secondspainful to have and look, I think anyone who wants to pursue their passion should
1:13:291 hour, 13 minutes, 29 secondsand then you figure out who has talent at it and who doesn’t. But the people that don’t really get to keep doing it.
1:13:371 hour, 13 minutes, 37 secondsAnd because they were never taught the lesson working in a room by themselves that the piece of music they wrote, the
1:13:451 hour, 13 minutes, 45 secondsrecording or the lyric they wrote, the production that they did, and then the mix and master that they did isn’t
1:13:521 hour, 13 minutes, 52 secondsworthy of anyone’s ears. And we can’t stop that.
1:13:581 hour, 13 minutes, 58 secondsAnd and look, I far be it for me to tell someone to stop doing what they enjoy doing, that’s fine. but to do it with this expectation that their video is
1:14:061 hour, 14 minutes, 6 secondsgoing to go viral and that they have right and then you like I spent a lot of time like throwing out my personal
1:14:151 hour, 14 minutes, 15 secondsexperience on Instagram and my ideas of what a what a educational tip is and of course they’re all you know ask 15
1:14:231 hour, 14 minutes, 23 secondsdifferent mixers and they’re all going to give you you know their version of that. I throw out mine and then I have people that have never worked with
1:14:291 hour, 14 minutes, 29 secondsanyone arguing with me about this is how you do that and it’s like what you want to say well what have you done and with who
1:14:371 hour, 14 minutes, 37 secondsI get that constantly you know and and it’s it’s very very frustrating because you know to at a certain point you just realize okay I’m not even going to
1:14:451 hour, 14 minutes, 45 secondsengage you know because why would I waste my time and my energy but you know I mean for for me
1:14:531 hour, 14 minutes, 53 secondsyeah but they leave comments on a post that there everyone else is there to see. And then if you delete this just happened to me, someone left a
1:15:011 hour, 15 minutes, 1 secondunbelievably nasty comment and and and said, “I got lucky enough to have mixed some decent records.”
1:15:091 hour, 15 minutes, 9 secondsYeah.
1:15:101 hour, 15 minutes, 10 secondsAnd that I don’t know what I’m doing and left that comment. And then I blocked this person and then they went to the my website and sent me a lengthy
1:15:181 hour, 15 minutes, 18 secondsdissertation on what it how I have no idea what I’m doing and I suck. I had somebody do that to me and I had them even find my phone number and call me
1:15:271 hour, 15 minutes, 27 secondsand start abusing me on the phone. So yeah, I feel you. You know, that that’s the era we live in. It’s,
1:15:351 hour, 15 minutes, 35 secondsyou know, and and and it is too bad and it is really it’s very very frustrating and and you know, the truth of the matter is that yeah, you know what, you
1:15:431 hour, 15 minutes, 43 secondscould go viral with something that’s a piece of [ __ ] you know, and that again speaks to the fact that music is no
1:15:511 hour, 15 minutes, 51 secondslonger the holy grail that it used to be. You know,
1:15:561 hour, 15 minutes, 56 secondsit’s much more dispensable now. It’s much more, you know, people don’t sit and listen to an album or any of that.
1:16:031 hour, 16 minutes, 3 secondsYou get 15 seconds. You get 15 seconds. That’s it. Yep.
1:16:081 hour, 16 minutes, 8 secondsThe value’s completely changed. The industry’s completely changed. Talking about it the way we’re talking about makes us probably sound like, oh, those guys,
1:16:171 hour, 16 minutes, 17 secondsyou know.
1:16:171 hour, 16 minutes, 17 secondsWell, all I can say to those people is you have no idea what you missed.
1:16:221 hour, 16 minutes, 22 secondsYeah. Well, so that brings me to the question that I normally wrap these interviews with and it’s kind of
1:16:291 hour, 16 minutes, 29 secondsapplicable especially you having come up with that and and and we now find ourselves deep in that dinosaur conversation.
1:16:381 hour, 16 minutes, 38 secondsuh 15year-old you coming into the industry now with the technology being what it is
1:16:451 hour, 16 minutes, 45 secondswith music being worth if not less than a completely different commodity what do
1:16:531 hour, 16 minutes, 53 secondsyou tell a 15year-old you coming on into the industry in this day and age
1:17:001 hour, 17 minuteswell are we are we leaving AI in this conversation all bets are off man
1:17:061 hour, 17 minutes, 6 secondsokay with AI I in this conversation I’m saying find something where you’re you can’t be replaced in two seconds
1:17:151 hour, 17 minutes, 15 secondsand then make it a hobby. don’t don’t have any real plans unfortunately because the world is changing and we
1:17:231 hour, 17 minutes, 23 secondscan’t stop it from changing and if I have 22,387 followers that message me lots of them
1:17:321 hour, 17 minutes, 32 secondsmessage me regularly talking about how do I do this or what’s a good way to do that and you know and I respond to a lot of people and what I really want to tell
1:17:401 hour, 17 minutes, 40 secondsthem is are you sure you’re going to have the opportunity to do this with other people because that’s what the ones that ask me
1:17:481 hour, 17 minutes, 48 secondsquestions are typically because they want careers and I’m scared for them.
1:17:531 hour, 17 minutes, 53 secondsYeah. Yeah. That is I think my biggest fear too is that there are so many times when you know I
1:18:021 hour, 18 minutes, 2 secondsI kids in my in my class who they’re brilliant, they’re talented, you know,
1:18:071 hour, 18 minutes, 7 secondsand I just think to myself, so what are you going to end up doing? Are you going to have the opportunity to make great
1:18:141 hour, 18 minutes, 14 secondsmusic? and if you do, is anybody going to care?
1:18:191 hour, 18 minutes, 19 secondsYou know, and a lot of them decide instead to go into live sound because that’s still reasonably healthy. Um,
1:18:261 hour, 18 minutes, 26 secondssome of them, you know, I counsel them to go into post, you know, or to go into something else that’s still viable. But
1:18:351 hour, 18 minutes, 35 secondshonestly, I mean, I don’t know that making records is really a thing anymore.
1:18:431 hour, 18 minutes, 43 secondsprobably not to make a living and support a family and buy a house with unfortunately. Yeah.
1:18:491 hour, 18 minutes, 49 secondsUm and it’s sad and I and it’s the only time I I will ever you will ever hear me
1:18:561 hour, 18 minutes, 56 secondssay that I’m frankly lucky that I got to this age and and got to live the good period and I don’t have to worry about
1:19:051 hour, 19 minutes, 5 secondsthat. So, I’m I’m I’m glad I’m as old as I’m old as I am and don’t have to worry about it.
1:19:111 hour, 19 minutes, 11 secondsYeah. And I, you know, I feel when I say things like that, you know, when I say things like, “Oh, you know, I’m really glad I grew up listening to the great bands and stuff like that, you know.”
1:19:211 hour, 19 minutes, 21 secondsYeah. I feel like Grandpa Simpson, you know, yelling at the clouds, you know. No, it’s it’s terrible. But, you know,
1:19:291 hour, 19 minutes, 29 secondsthis is my opinion. I’m glad that I got to do it and that I know that so many are just not going to have that
1:19:371 hour, 19 minutes, 37 secondsopportunity and I’ve worked with so many of my heroes and you know
1:19:441 hour, 19 minutes, 44 secondsit’s it’s just thank God and I’ve and I’m and I’m sad horribly that it’s ending this way and or will be ending.
1:19:551 hour, 19 minutes, 55 secondsIt isn’t today, but you know, it’s not that far in the future where you go,
1:20:001 hour, 20 minutesokay, well, I’ve had my run. I’ve been doing this a very long time. I’ve been as successful, more successful than I
1:20:081 hour, 20 minutes, 8 secondsever could have hoped for. I’m still working. I’ve been still busy. There’s going to be a time where it really doesn’t make sense anymore. And like you
1:20:161 hour, 20 minutes, 16 secondssaid, then what? And I don’t ever see being okay with it. I just don’t I don’t see being okay with it. I hope
1:20:231 hour, 20 minutes, 23 secondsmy my fervent hope is that it will evolve into something else that’s good.
1:20:291 hour, 20 minutes, 29 secondsYou know, I mean, I think there will always be a need for creativity in the human condition. So, what’s that going to look like?
1:20:371 hour, 20 minutes, 37 secondsYou’re teaching. Yeah. And you’re teaching. So, hopefully there’s satisfaction in that.
1:20:441 hour, 20 minutes, 44 secondsAnd I enjoy doing it, too, because I’m doing it all the time on Instagram. Uh when, you know, outside of the people that tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. And uh I get those too.
1:20:541 hour, 20 minutes, 54 secondsBelieve me, even in school, you know,
1:20:571 hour, 20 minutes, 57 secondsand uh yeah,
1:21:001 hour, 21 minutesthank God we’ve had the run that we that’s all trying to remember.
1:21:041 hour, 21 minutes, 4 secondsYeah. Well, Craig Barrower, thank you for your time and your expertise and your brilliance and all of that other
1:21:121 hour, 21 minutes, 12 secondsgood [ __ ] It’s uh I don’t know how much of there was of those things, but I’m It’s a pleasure being here. It’s a pleasure chatting with you, man.
1:21:191 hour, 21 minutes, 19 secondsAbsolutely. Thank you.
1:21:251 hour, 21 minutes, 25 secondsHey, I’m Daniel Keller. Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button and join us each week for Insights and Sound.

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