Insights In Sound 210 – Robert Carranza, Producer/Engineer S21 E10

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0:2727 secondsSo, I’m here with Robert Coranza. We are in the famous Lobo version 2.0.
0:3434 secondsVersion 2.0.
0:3636 secondsAnd I mean, I can just feel the vibe in here, man. It’s it’s it’s gorgeous. It really is.
0:4242 secondsLet’s start with a little bit about you and your background for people who don’t know you because you’ve been kind of you’ve been under everybody’s noses for
0:5050 secondslike years and years and yet probably a hell of a lot of people have no idea what you do. Yeah. I kind of keep it that way.
0:5858 secondsYeah. Yeah. kind of prefer it.
1:001 minuteYeah. And then the other thing that I kind of and and and I mean this as the ultimate compliment, your CV is all over the map.
1:081 minute, 8 secondsYeah. I mean, you cannot be pigeonholed, dude.
1:101 minute, 10 secondsYou know, everything from Jack Johnson to uh I mean to to serious metal y to I mean just really, you know, and Mars Volulta.
1:211 minute, 21 secondsYeah.
1:211 minute, 21 secondsYou know, I mean really stuff that’s all over the place. I I think I’m a product of my uncles and my brothers and
1:281 minute, 28 secondssisters. My old It’s great to have older siblings.
1:331 minute, 33 secondsYeah. Yeah. cuz they turn you on to all this stuff.
1:351 minute, 35 secondsThey really turn I mean, you know, I I could tell you, man,
1:381 minute, 38 secondsbeing five years old and hearing Led Zeppelin for the first time for my uncle
1:461 minute, 46 secondswho just had come back from Vietnam, you know,
1:481 minute, 48 secondsand then my older brother who was 10 years older than me, but you know, not too older, right?
1:541 minute, 54 secondsAnd then him playing Black Sabbath for the first time and you know,
1:581 minute, 58 secondswe’d be in a dark room. He goes, “I want to put them this music on for you.”
2:022 minutes, 2 secondsand he would be smoking a joint and you know and I be what’s the smell in here? It’s incense. Yeah.
2:092 minutes, 9 secondsYou know, but but then what it really did for me was it gave me a sense of visuals.
2:172 minutes, 17 secondsSo now I mean I really have to say this,
2:192 minutes, 19 secondsit it really kind of um everything is visual to me. There’s a when I hear a song Yeah. I understand.
2:272 minutes, 27 secondsI see pictures.
2:282 minutes, 28 secondsYeah. you know, and I see and I work with I do some film works,
2:322 minutes, 32 secondstoo. I did, you know, my friend Tyler Bates is my best friend and he’s done a bunch of big John Wick, Galaxy, the Guardians of the Galaxy, you know,
2:412 minutes, 41 seconds300 and so on and so on.
2:432 minutes, 43 secondsSo, I mix for him a lot what he want stuff.
2:462 minutes, 46 secondsSo, the visual aspect of that is kind of funny, you know, it’s like it’s going back to those days.
2:522 minutes, 52 secondsYeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, your brother, your uncles, you know, they all had different tastes and genres of music. So, and then my mom, you know,
3:023 minutes, 2 secondsthe Saturday night, Saturday cleaning, she put on [ __ ] Brew. Oh, I love it. You know, she put on War,
3:093 minutes, 9 secondsyou know, she put on uh, you know, uh,
3:123 minutes, 12 secondsSantana. I mean, it was just kind of like, okay, and what’s that?
3:163 minutes, 16 secondsAnd and you know, you hear that and you’re like, why does that make me feel great? Like, you know. Yeah. And the other thing is that music,
3:223 minutes, 22 secondsat least in those times, it wasn’t factionalized like it is now. I mean,
3:263 minutes, 26 secondsyou really you could you could turn on a radio station and you could hear that kind of stuff segueing into each other. Yeah.
3:333 minutes, 33 secondsYou know, going from like Jethro to 10 years after to the Beatles to, you know,
3:403 minutes, 40 secondsand I think there was so much more experimentation, so much more uh really mixing of styles and everything.
3:473 minutes, 47 secondsYeah. So for me, music is it’s really not a genre, it’s how it makes me feel. Yeah. Yeah.
3:543 minutes, 54 secondsSo I’m genreless when it comes to music.
3:563 minutes, 56 secondsAnd again, you know, I Jack Johnson to some like black metal, death metal stuff to Los Lobos. Yeah.
4:044 minutes, 4 secondsTo Harro music to Yeah.
4:064 minutes, 6 secondsYou know, I I’m I’m truly It’s all music. It’s all music. I just I love the insanity of like Muga,
4:154 minutes, 15 secondsyou know, just like Yeah. Yeah.
4:164 minutes, 16 secondsI can sit there and go like this is a brilliant like what are they what how do these people think, you know?
4:224 minutes, 22 secondsWell, and that’s it right there because that’s what I love about doing music in general is the idea of
4:294 minutes, 29 secondsyou’re helping people to create something, to express something. and that I don’t care if you’re if you’re Azie Osborne or Frank Sinatra, you know,
4:404 minutes, 40 secondsyou’re it’s it’s a creative process that is so deep. And I mean, to me, that’s what I love about what we do.
4:484 minutes, 48 secondsYeah.
4:484 minutes, 48 secondsYou get into it on that level where you’re like you’re tapping into the psyche, you know? I’ve been I won’t get into who
4:564 minutes, 56 secondsthese people are, but you know, I’ve been in some records where some ma massive catastrophes have happened to people and no, that never happened.
5:055 minutes, 5 secondsAnd and and we went and make a record after that and you’re like, “Wow.” Like it’s healing. I’ve been on a record where I watch man.
5:145 minutes, 14 secondsYeah, it is. It is definitely another artist that I worked with um he he went into the woods and he took a
5:225 minutes, 22 secondsacoustic guitar and he took a uh 45 Colt and he goes, “One of these are going to win.”
5:305 minutes, 30 secondsOh.
5:315 minutes, 31 secondsAnd you go, “Oh [ __ ] that’s that’s real.” Yeah.
5:355 minutes, 35 secondsYou know, and then he was like I was like, “Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let’s talk first.” And he was
5:425 minutes, 42 secondslike, you know, and I’m like, and he had some other things. He had said like, I’m falling out of love with my wife and I’m trying to figure out if I’m what to do,
5:545 minutes, 54 secondsright?
5:545 minutes, 54 secondsAnd I’m like, and that’s real heavy
5:565 minutes, 56 seconds[ __ ]
5:565 minutes, 56 secondsIt is, you know, and you know, and he wrote a brilliant record about it, but you know,
6:046 minutes, 4 secondsyou don’t take that lightly.
6:056 minutes, 5 secondsNo, you don’t. And I mean I think that’s I think that’s one of the things about being an artist too is that these ideas you know um you read Rig Rubin’s book?
6:166 minutes, 16 secondsI have not yet. So he’s got this great concept in the opening which I’ve always believed and I I loved hearing somebody else voice it which is that these ideas
6:256 minutes, 25 secondsdon’t come from us they come through us and there’s basically like this almost this creative unconscious you know out
6:336 minutes, 33 secondsthere and everything gets channeled through us you know and it’s I think to me the idea that we are
6:406 minutes, 40 secondsthese vehicles oh absolutely for expressing this stuff man that’s you know on On the one hand, it’s a beautiful thing. On the other hand, it’s a hell of a responsibility.
6:516 minutes, 51 secondsYeah. Uh I was in Jamaica one day and we’re working on a microranty record and you know, just walking around Kingston,
7:007 minutesyou know, with Black with Chris Blackwell and Sly Sly Dumbar and Robbie Shakespeare and, you know, people I never thought I’d be in the room with,
7:097 minutes, 9 secondsbut I loved their music. And you know,
7:117 minutes, 11 secondswhen I met Chris Blackwell, he walked in and goes, “This is the way a record should sound like.” And you know, that was like, wow, what a compliment.
7:187 minutes, 18 secondsWhat a compliment, right? Yeah.
7:207 minutes, 20 secondsBut we’re walking in Kingston on this road and this guy walks up to me and he was like, “Hey, man. Where are you from?” You know, and I was just like,
7:287 minutes, 28 seconds”I’m from nowhere.” And he’s like, he was like, “No, no, where you from?” I go, “I’m from Los Angeles.” He goes, “What are you what are you doing here?”
7:347 minutes, 34 secondsI go, “I’m here to meet you.” And he was like, you know, he was like kind of taken back by it, but you know, we
7:417 minutes, 41 secondsstarted talking and, you know, we sat down for a minute and, you know, was like you just made a friend somewhere and he has his story and I wanted to hear it.
7:507 minutes, 50 secondsSo, I’m I’m a big person about storytelling. Well, that’s what real music should be,
7:567 minutes, 56 secondsI think. Shouldn’t it? I mean, that’s really why we’re here. We’re here to tell stories. We’re here to to express
8:048 minutes, 4 secondsnot only what we need to express, but what other people maybe can’t express.
8:088 minutes, 8 secondsYou know, I mean, to me, I think the idea that you could create something or be a part of creating something that touches somebody else.
8:188 minutes, 18 secondsOh, yeah. whose life had nothing to do with yours, but they’re like, you know,
8:238 minutes, 23 secondsI mean, people who come up to you later on and say, “Man, you know, I listened to that record when I was 12 years old,
8:318 minutes, 31 seconds14 years old, whatever, and you saved my life, you know.” Yeah.
8:348 minutes, 34 secondsOr I’ve had artists come up to me and just say like, you know, I, you know, that record never did anything, but man,
8:428 minutes, 42 secondsyou helped me get it out. Yeah. You know, Yeah. Yeah. That’s important, I think.
8:468 minutes, 46 secondsOh, no. It’s It’s truly important. It’s it’s funny cuz uh uh you know uh last this year’s NAM you know I went and a
8:568 minutes, 56 secondsfriend who came with me you know who’s never been to NAM so I was like whoa come you know so you know we’re in the proauudio area right you know
9:049 minutes, 4 secondsand he’s like you know and you’re just running into everybody right and people want to take pictures some people you know who know you and
9:129 minutes, 12 secondsand he was like man you’re like famous and I was like I’m famous in this room I’m Like I go, “These are what I tell people too.
9:209 minutes, 20 secondsThese are all nerds in here that know the work and they’re they’re record they’re new recording engineers. They’re kind of like that.” I go I go, “Let’s go outside.” We walked outside and I was like,
9:299 minutes, 29 seconds”Anybody? Anybody?”
9:319 minutes, 31 secondsRight. I go I can go to the restaurant down the block and everybody they’re going to treat me like everybody else.
9:369 minutes, 36 secondsYeah. And I go I go mostly the world is designed to ignore you and it’s what you do yourself that either soos your ego or
9:459 minutes, 45 secondsnot. And for me, I my ego is I’ve, you know, this is weird, but I’ve been more successful than I thought I’d ever be in
9:539 minutes, 53 secondsmy life, you know. So, I’m I’m happy with it. I’m I’m cool. Like, again, I planted my uh my flag on Mount Everest already and and you know, I’ve done some,
10:0210 minutes, 2 secondsyou know, I think it’s cool things. So, and ultimately that matters to me, right?
10:0610 minutes, 6 secondsYou know, and and and to the people you’ve worked with.
10:0810 minutes, 8 secondsYeah. Yeah. you know, but I’ve also been on stage with an a couple of the artists I’ve worked with and you know, I mean,
10:1310 minutes, 13 secondsGod, Hyde Park, 100,000 people out there singing the song that we recorded in a little shack in Hawaii,
10:2310 minutes, 23 secondsyou know, and and really being there going like, “Wow, this is wild.”
10:2710 minutes, 27 secondsYeah. Yeah, you know, and and and you know, uh it’s again I’m only a small part of that, but nevertheless, you know, I do my part,
10:3910 minutes, 39 secondsyou know,
10:4010 minutes, 40 secondsbut you know, that’s the thing is it’s not the size of the part, it’s the significance of the part,
10:4610 minutes, 46 secondsyou know, and I think that what we do as producers is helping,
10:5410 minutes, 54 secondsyou know, it’s one thing to be able to twiddle the knobs, and that’s great and everything, but you know, I think that to a certain extent, all that knob
11:0211 minutes, 2 secondstwiddling and stuff, what that is is like the ideas have already been out there. The ideas have been churning around.
11:1011 minutes, 10 secondsThey’re now coming through someone.
11:1211 minutes, 12 secondsThe the actual recording of it is almost like the documentation of what we’ve already been ready to get out there.
11:2011 minutes, 20 secondsYeah. and we’re helping them to see like, okay, here’s what you want to say,
11:2511 minutes, 25 secondsyou know, and here’s how we can help you to say it. I think that’s really valuable, man.
11:3011 minutes, 30 secondsI’m only as good as the people that I learned from.
11:3211 minutes, 32 secondsWell, isn’t that great? Isn’t that the the point of it all?
11:3511 minutes, 35 secondsSo, I’ve had some great teachers, you know, Dave, you Dave Jordan used to say,
11:4011 minutes, 40 seconds”Hey, man, a monkey could make a a record, you know, just a matter of figuring it out and doing it.” Glen Johnson, brilliant, brilliant guy right there,
11:4911 minutes, 49 secondsman. I miss him. Yeah, I do too. And uh this Andy Jin Andy Glen John used to say the same thing. He goes like this is a formality.
11:5711 minutes, 57 secondsYeah.
11:5711 minutes, 57 secondsYou know, it goes it’s the emotion that you’re trying to do. Yeah. It’s like Yeah. You know,
12:0112 minutes, 1 secondand and that’s the thing, man, is I mean, you can, you know, especially nowadays, but even then, man, you can make a record on a, you know, on a a four track realtore, you know, with
12:1012 minutes, 10 secondsalmost no gear. Yeah. you know, and it’s about capturing that feeling, that essence of the artist and what they want
12:1712 minutes, 17 secondsto say. And that Yeah, it’s great when you have gear like this, you know, it’s wonderful. I love it. But it makes it easy. Yeah.
12:2512 minutes, 25 secondsBut, you know, there’s nothing wrong. I mean, it’s so funny. Uh,
12:2912 minutes, 29 secondsso I was doing those slows and um Tom Weight said he would collaborate. Oh, you know, so I was okay.
12:3712 minutes, 37 secondsGetting chills just thinking about that,
12:3912 minutes, 39 secondsman. So, we’re working on a track and then he was like, “All right, Robert, I
12:4612 minutes, 46 secondsneed you to send me a Ford track. Very specific for track. Fostex four track.” And I’m like, “Okay.” Uhhuh.
12:5312 minutes, 53 secondsSo, you know, at that time we was a recycler,
12:5712 minutes, 57 secondsnot you know, right? Of course, eBay or Craigslist.
13:0113 minutes, 1 secondFound a recycler, found a Ford track. We did one track monot track, put it on there. He has three tracks to work with.
13:1113 minutes, 11 secondsWe put a cassette. We send it off to him. Send it off to We’re waiting. And then one day a package shows up and it’s
13:1813 minutes, 18 secondslike he got a cassette. I still have the cassette. I actually posted it on my Instagram, but it says um Lobos waits.
13:2913 minutes, 29 secondsAnd man, when I got the cassette, I could not wait to go to the studio and play it. And then we sat there, I hit play, and then the guys were just like,
13:3713 minutes, 37 seconds”What the hell? This is amazing.” You know, so and that made the record, you know, all we didn’t even do we we were like, “Well, what do we do?” We’re like,
13:4713 minutes, 47 seconds”Do we uh transfer it back to ProTools and then try to line it up?” I went, “No, no, we just keep the four tracks.
13:5313 minutes, 53 secondsWe’ll just transfer this. That’ll be that’ll be it.” And that was it. You know, fun. You know, it’s like the the emotion of those guys just having uh
14:0314 minutes, 3 secondsplaying and you know, those guys are the the the unexplainable. Salt of the earth. It’s unexplainable.
14:1014 minutes, 10 secondsYeah. Yeah. They have a chemistry between them that’s just you know, it’s amazing. It really is. You and I’ I’ve you know, again, I was
14:1714 minutes, 17 secondsfortunate enough to do a few records with them and it’s like just them walking in a room, it just seems so effortless.
14:2414 minutes, 24 secondsYou know, part of it is the siblings thing, too. I think you know uh yeah I guess because there’s a chemistry there you
14:3114 minutes, 31 secondsknow that just like they lock into each other in such a way man like you know I don’t know what it is but it just it it makes me just happy to see them playing
14:4014 minutes, 40 secondstogether because you could tell man I mean and I saw them recently too like a couple years ago um I think trying to remember oh they
14:4714 minutes, 47 secondswere opening for um um which trucks and and Tedeshi trucks band
14:5514 minutes, 55 secondsand man. I mean, you know, it’s like, wow, you guys haven’t lost the joy. Yeah.
15:0215 minutes, 2 secondsYou know, and that really to me is like,
15:0515 minutes, 5 secondsman, you could go on forever if you have the joy.
15:0715 minutes, 7 secondsYeah. I mean, that’s think about like Al Schmidt. Yeah. Yeah.
15:1015 minutes, 10 secondsAl was loving it until the very end, you know. I mean, we should all be so lucky, right? Exactly. Exactly.
15:1615 minutes, 16 secondsAnd and we’ve lost a lot. I mean, Ed Churnney was a big champion of mine, you know.
15:2015 minutes, 20 secondsI was I was just talking to Rose online the other day. We were laughing about uh cuz cuz um Ed was the king of dad jokes,
15:2915 minutes, 29 secondsright? And you know, I once in a while I post these bad jokes, you know, and she’ll send me a note and she’ll say, “Eddie would have loved that one.” Yeah.
15:3615 minutes, 36 secondsWell, I saw him at a part at the village.
15:3915 minutes, 39 secondsYou know, he was there. He had a room there. Yeah.
15:4115 minutes, 41 secondsSo, I saw him. He walks up to me and he was like, “Hey, man. How you doing?” I’m like, “Good, man. How you been?” You know, and he was like, “I’m good.” He was, “Hey, come over here. I was filming
15:5015 minutes, 50 secondsmy room.” I was like went to his room and he was like didn’t want to you know and he was like hey man like
15:5715 minutes, 57 secondsyou look a little heavy like you know I was like what he was like gain some weight. I was like, “Yeah.” And he was
16:0416 minutes, 4 secondslike, “Got to take care of that.” And I was like, “Oh shit.” Like it was like he didn’t want to I know he didn’t want to embarrass me in front of anybody, so he took me away to say it.
16:1316 minutes, 13 secondsUhhuh. And this business, you’re working late,
16:1816 minutes, 18 secondsyou’re not eating healthy. You know, the band orders pizza at midnight. And you know, a lot of the records I do, I travel. I’ve gone, you know, all around the world making records.
16:2816 minutes, 28 secondsShitty food. Bad. Yeah. Bad schedules, you know. And it was like,
16:3116 minutes, 31 secondsyou know, and I was like, it was one of those things where someone, it just like a little slap in the face that that I was like, “Oh, you’re right. I’ve been
16:4016 minutes, 40 secondstaking advantage of this. This is going to catch up with me, you know.”
16:4316 minutes, 43 secondsYeah. And, you know, none of us are getting younger. And that’s the thing, you know.
16:4616 minutes, 46 secondsYeah. So, it’s it’s it’s that kind of thing. Again, it’s crazy because you have relationships with these people that you’ve known all these years. I mean, you know, God, Paula and Candace
16:5516 minutes, 55 secondsand Kit, I I could keep going. the women who who’ve been in my life, you know, my second wives, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely, man.
17:0317 minutes, 3 secondsYou know, and you know, know them all this time and and you know, got Tina.
17:0717 minutes, 7 secondsTina as well. And and and then now I mean I mean Rose, you know. Oh, yeah. And and now we’re like,
17:1517 minutes, 15 secondsyou know, we’re getting up in age and and the business is changing, you know,
17:1917 minutes, 19 secondsand we’re kind of trying to lead a path to kind of share our wealth of what we know and you know what it is.
17:2617 minutes, 26 secondsYeah. But I mean, a good song is just a good song, too.
17:3017 minutes, 30 secondsWell, but you know, you bring up an interesting point because that’s something um you know, like in the last few years, one of the things that I’ve
17:3817 minutes, 38 secondsbeen doing with this show is talking about the whole idea of like how careers evolve. Yeah. How people’s, you know,
17:4617 minutes, 46 secondshow we evolve as people. And I think especially because the industry has changed so much and we’re getting
17:5317 minutes, 53 secondsolder. Sure. there’s um there’s a certain you know it’s like this I think the entire process is an adaptation and
18:0318 minutes, 3 secondsyou know it’s like okay I’m willing to bet that when you started out you want to be a rock star cuz we all did right in a band yeah weren’t we all you know
18:1218 minutes, 12 secondsand then you know you start thinking oh well actually you know I think maybe I’d rather you know I like this you know and I like pushing the buttons and I like
18:2118 minutes, 21 secondsyou know being that part and then you know it’s like for me I wanted to be the rockstar, then I wanted to be the engineer, then I did the engineering, I
18:2918 minutes, 29 secondswas like, “Okay, I’ve done this, you know, I want to do the producing, you know, and and all these different things that you try.” And you realize that, you know, as a multiaceted creative person,
18:4018 minutes, 40 secondsI want to do a little bit of everything, you know,
18:4318 minutes, 43 secondsand you really kind of adapt to it. And I think even at this point in our lives,
18:4618 minutes, 46 secondsman, what are we doing? We’re still adapting. Yeah. You know, the technologies change, the industry’s changing. Yeah. You know, you write a good song is a good song. A shitty song is a shitty song.
18:5518 minutes, 55 secondsYeah.
18:5618 minutes, 56 secondsAnd a shitty song could be a shitty song in the 1970s or now.
19:0019 minutesAnd it could it could be recorded at any great studio and still be a shitty song.
19:0419 minutes, 4 secondsExactly. It could sound wonderful, you know. It’s like what’s the old joke about polished, you know? And but ultimately,
19:1119 minutes, 11 secondswe’re here to create something beautiful. Yeah. You know, and if we can help these artists, whether they’re, you know, whether they’re just coming up now
19:2019 minutes, 20 secondsor whether they still got something to say at the age of 75. Yeah. Yeah. You know, which plenty of them do, man.
19:2519 minutes, 25 secondsYou were talking earlier about Neil Young, you know. You know, Young’s great. Yeah. He’s still doing it. Still doing it. Still has stuff to say,
19:3219 minutes, 32 secondsyou know. And I mean, I’m um who did I just uh Oh, I was recently over at Jackson Brown studio.
19:4019 minutes, 40 secondsOh, I know Jackson.
19:4019 minutes, 40 secondsYeah. And you know, same thing, man. I mean, these are people who, you know, touched us. Yeah. Coming up, you know.
19:4819 minutes, 48 secondsUm, I remember running into James Taylor backstage at Montro in the ‘9s. And, you know, I’m not like I mean, I’m like you,
19:5719 minutes, 57 secondsman. I’m not I don’t fanboy out because we’ve known these people our whole lives, right? But I had to, man. I walked up and I said, “Man, I just got to tell you, you know, Fire and Rain was
20:0520 minutes, 5 secondsthe second song I ever learned on guitar.” Yeah. And I’m thinking he’s going to be like,
20:0820 minutes, 8 seconds”Yeah, okay, whatever.” you know, he’s like, “Oh, did you get the part with the double pull off?” And you know, cuz everybody messes that up part, you know,
20:1420 minutes, 14 secondsit’s like and starts a conversation with me like, you know, like I’m his best friend, you know,
20:1920 minutes, 19 secondsand I just feel like, man, these are the people. These are the reasons we do this because you form these relationships with people
20:2620 minutes, 26 secondswhere you really like you value them and they value you and what we value is this what we’re creating.
20:3420 minutes, 34 secondsYeah. Yeah. It’s a weird thing to live your life in isolation a little bit. Um, looking back at things now.
20:4120 minutes, 41 secondsYeah. Yeah. And you’re like, “Wow, you know, I mean, we get paid to do what we do, you know, and it’s great, but
20:4820 minutes, 48 secondsthere’s also we sit in a room with some people who are spilling their guts out and really putting it on the line.” And,
20:5820 minutes, 58 secondsyou know, you want to help them as best as you can to reach an audience that people can feel the same way and understand these words you’re saying and
21:0621 minutes, 6 secondsthe music that you’re saying. And at at some point, you know, you’re sometimes you find yourself in a room with people that you’re like,
21:1321 minutes, 13 secondsI can’t believe I’m in the room with this person. Yeah.
21:1621 minutes, 16 secondsYou know, and and you know, you kind of want to pinch yourself, but then you’re like, okay, I know how to handle myself like these are regular people. Yeah.
21:2321 minutes, 23 secondsYou know, they just they just have this talent.
21:2621 minutes, 26 secondsI have my talent, they have their talent, and you know, I facil I’m a facilitator at any cost.
21:3121 minutes, 31 secondsYeah. You know, I’m like, you know, I tell people all the time because,
21:3421 minutes, 34 secondsyou know, I get people who send you uh some tracks and they’re like, “Well, I did this vocal in my basement, you know,
21:4021 minutes, 40 secondson my on my little mbox or my UA or whatever they, you know, whatever whatever they have.” And then I’m like, you know, okay. And they’re like, “Well,
21:4821 minutes, 48 secondsyou know, there’s always the intention of like, we’ll redo it with a nice microphone and blah blah blah.” And I go, “Yeah, sure we will.” You know, I
21:5721 minutes, 57 secondsknow that already, you know, and this is the track. and and then you get it and then you know you sit there and you’re like, “Hey, man, this is really
22:0422 minutes, 4 secondsgood. I could I can I could morph this into something,
22:0922 minutes, 9 secondsright?” Right. Like maybe you want to do an overdo or something, but this is the vocal.
22:1322 minutes, 13 secondsYeah. And this is really really And I’ve done it a thousand times and I’m like,
22:1622 minutes, 16 seconds”Okay, go go go sing it again.” and they’re just not in that same place, you know, and and they, you know, so and I’m a true believer of like emotion
22:2522 minutes, 25 secondscomes through speakers because most of the time speakers are emotionless. They have no emotion at all. Yeah.
22:3222 minutes, 32 secondsAnd it’s it’s up to us to kind of get emotion to come through and it’s transitive. And it’s transitive. Yeah,
22:4022 minutes, 40 secondsit really is. And that’s the thing too,
22:4222 minutes, 42 secondsyou know, it’s like I know that there have been times when I’ve been sitting in the studio with someone and I just, you know, the hairs on my arm are standing up and I’m like,
22:5222 minutes, 52 seconds”Oh, that was it, man.” You know, it’s like, “Yeah, you can try 12 more takes if you want, but you know what? That was it right there.” You know,
23:0023 minutesbecause that’s where it hit,
23:0223 minutes, 2 secondsyou know? That’s where the planets aligned. Yeah. you know, and I think that’s something that if you’re lucky,
23:1023 minutes, 10 secondsyou’re there for those moments, you know.
23:1223 minutes, 12 secondsYeah. I kind of at times I do feel sad for some of the new artists um because
23:2023 minutes, 20 secondswe’re we’re constantly um like you got to write this song. You got to get this done. There’s nothing wrong.
23:2723 minutes, 27 secondsI mean, I love all shades of music. So,
23:3023 minutes, 30 secondsI love a great pop song as much as I love again the darkest black metal. Sure. A guy’s in a garage.
23:3723 minutes, 37 secondsAnd you know, it’s it’s crazy, but sometimes we rush into things.
23:4223 minutes, 42 secondsYou know, sometimes I wonder if we we force ourselves to not step back and go
23:4923 minutes, 49 secondslike, is this ready? You know, do I need to work on this more? Is it? Yeah. Let’s talk about pre-production.
23:5623 minutes, 56 secondsYeah. You know, because man, that’s the thing. And and that’s one of the things that I think has changed so much as music has become more commodified
24:0424 minutes, 4 secondsbecause we’re in certain ways working against exactly the magic that we’re trying to to capture. Yeah.
24:1224 minutes, 12 secondsYou know, and part of it is just, you know, that’s what this industry has done.
24:1624 minutes, 16 secondsAnd you know, you talk about younger artists, man, younger artists have so much harder because number one,
24:2224 minutes, 22 secondsthey can’t help but be derivative of something. Yeah. you know, because there’s just so much stuff that came before.
24:3024 minutes, 30 secondsBut there are always original talents.
24:3224 minutes, 32 secondsThere are always things that people have to say. And there’s some brilliant, beautiful artists out there right now.
24:3824 minutes, 38 secondsYeah. You know, doing stuff. But they’re forced to kind of like, well, not just forced, but they’re kind of forcing themselves almost to get it out there,
24:4824 minutes, 48 secondsto do it this way because it has to be out there. And I think in a sense it’s kind of a shame because you don’t get
24:5624 minutes, 56 secondsthe chance to really nurture that and grow that, you know. Yeah. It’s like watering a plant.
25:0225 minutes, 2 secondsYeah. Yeah. Exactly. That plant’s not going to grow in a week. That plant’s going to take, you know, a few months,
25:0825 minutes, 8 secondseven a few years, you know, but it’s going to turn into something. And what are we doing? We’re kind of picking it too early.
25:1525 minutes, 15 secondsYeah. I uh one of my best friends is Mario Caldado. Mario C for people who know him for the Beasty Boys and you
25:2325 minutes, 23 secondsknow we Gson used to be a studio right here in Atwater and we were we worked there you know and um you know the
25:3125 minutes, 31 secondsBeasties built that place as a playground. Uhhuh.
25:3425 minutes, 34 secondsAnd it was like but it was a recording studio but it had like you know basketball court. It had halfpipe in it.
25:4025 minutes, 40 secondsyou know, they had a little stage they set up. And the way those records came about,
25:4525 minutes, 45 secondsyou know, was them experimenting and having fun and, you know, it’s not necessarily, you know,
25:5325 minutes, 53 secondsthey but they they had Mario there who was really like, okay, we still got to get work done. We still got to, you know,
26:0026 minutesbut it was a playground for them that turned into a record,
26:0326 minutes, 3 secondsright? And and the goals are there, but they’re kind of nebulous and they’re intentionally nebulous. Yeah, there’s not the pressure of going like, “Oh, you know, we got to,
26:1326 minutes, 13 secondsyou know, there’s some songs they made that were complete mistakes, you know,
26:1726 minutes, 17 secondsand and it’s like it didn’t they’re hit songs and you’re like, where did that come from the best, man?”
26:2126 minutes, 21 secondsI mean, you know, to me, man, those accidents, that’s what makes it, you know, who was I talking to? Um, oh, um,
26:2826 minutes, 28 secondsyou know Morris Hayes? I do not know.
26:3026 minutes, 30 secondsMorris used to play with Prince in New Power Generation and he was telling me a story about how, uh, he was laying down a track and he flubbed a note and he
26:3926 minutes, 39 secondssaid, “Oh, let me fix that.” And Prince was like, “What?” Yeah.
26:4226 minutes, 42 secondsYou know, I was like, he said, not only did he not let him fix it, he built a horn part around that bad note. you know. Yeah.
26:4926 minutes, 49 secondsIt’s like sometimes, man, those are the things that like, no, let’s keep this because it’s so out there, you know? Yeah.
26:5626 minutes, 56 secondsIt’s like, what’s that, what’s that old Miles Davis phrase about um there are no wrong notes. It’s the next note. Yeah. Yeah.
27:0327 minutes, 3 secondsYou know, and I love that, man. That to me is like,
27:0627 minutes, 6 secondswhy do we do this, man? We do this for that joy.
27:0927 minutes, 9 secondsYeah. It’s it’s it’s, you know, I don’t know. It’s um a lot of reflection recently uh about
27:1627 minutes, 16 secondsrecord making and time and I mean you know I think a band you know it’s it’s
27:2427 minutes, 24 secondsinteresting I won’t say there’s a band that I know that were like you know very popular in the ‘9s and you know when I first met them they were really really
27:3227 minutes, 32 secondsoptimistic about everything very very very like you know we’re running up that mountain you know you Yeah.
27:4127 minutes, 41 secondsAnd then, you know, you get less popular,
27:4627 minutes, 46 secondsmaybe you’re not selling as many tickets, you’re not selling as many records, and then you start questioning.
27:5227 minutes, 52 secondsSo, you had this hope that turned into fear, you know, because now you’re fear like, is anyone going to show up? Does
27:5927 minutes, 59 secondsanyone care anymore? And and then the band starts turning on each other and they start like, you know, you know,
28:0728 minutes, 7 secondsit’s a weird thing.
28:0928 minutes, 9 secondsThe music is a a life form unto itself I think and I think that it has a time.
28:1828 minutes, 18 secondsIt’s not just that there’s another aspect that you know you made me think about one thing when you said that you know there’s there’s this tendency that we have as human beings to compare.
28:2928 minutes, 29 secondsYeah.
28:2928 minutes, 29 secondsRight. and we’re constantly comparing ourselves to other people, whether it’s another band or whatever it is, or this
28:3628 minutes, 36 secondswhole um this whole thing of like my metric is how many tickets I sold, how many albums I sold or did I win a Grammy
28:4528 minutes, 45 secondsor do I have a record on the wall? And you know, it’s I love there’s this saying that I love,
28:5228 minutes, 52 secondsbut the only person you’re in competition with is yourself yesterday. Yeah.
28:5628 minutes, 56 secondsAnd that I think is something that I mean I go through this with a lot of the students that I teach. It’s like you know they’re they’re constantly
29:0329 minutes, 3 secondsespecially now with social media man we’re looking at these curated versions of other people’s lives and we’re saying why can’t I be there? Yeah.
29:1129 minutes, 11 secondsYou know and ultimately worth death for creativity.
29:1529 minutes, 15 secondsIt is. It is. And you know and so many bands and so many artists go through that. It’s like, oh well, you know, I didn’t win a Grammy or I didn’t do this,
29:2229 minutes, 22 secondsyou know, and and ultimately, man, you know, what matters is did it work for you? Did it work for other people? You
29:3129 minutes, 31 secondsknow, I had a I had a conversation recently with a singer that I worked with in Germany in the ‘9s, and her band broke up years ago, and she’s I mean,
29:4129 minutes, 41 secondsshe’s still massively talented, still out there singing, became a jazz singer,
29:4529 minutes, 45 secondsand she’s just, you know, still incredible, still gorgeous, you know, in her 60s and just killing it.
29:5229 minutes, 52 secondsAnd she said to me, you know, the thing is that album never came out. That band never went anywhere, but man, you helped me get that out there. Yeah,
30:0030 minutesyou know, you helped me birth those songs and those songs were important and ultimately, man, I feel better about
30:0830 minutes, 8 secondsthat than, you know, if I had worried about did we sell enough, did we this,
30:1330 minutes, 13 secondsdid we that, you know, and that’s I think that’s so hard because we always have this feeling of like we got to do this,
30:2130 minutes, 21 secondswe got to do that, we got to reach these goals and we set these unachievable goals.
30:2630 minutes, 26 secondsYeah. you know, and then of course we’d never meet meet them, so we’re always failing, you know.
30:3130 minutes, 31 secondsYeah. I I you know I I a lot of new artists I talk to I I kind of read them the riot act a little bit of what what
30:3830 minutes, 38 secondsthe expectations are you know and I’m like I’m like you know uh you guys are young you know again I’m it’s like I’m
30:4730 minutes, 47 secondsstill working with 20 year olds and 21 year olds and you know it’s like of course and I see the same piss and vinegar
30:5430 minutes, 54 secondscoming out of them like you know that you had when you were younger and I see it and I’m like okay just focus that energy and you know don’t
31:0331 minutes, 3 secondslisten to anybody. I go sometimes don’t even listen to me because I could I’m could be wrong. Yeah. And I go, “But the
31:1131 minutes, 11 secondsinstincts that you have or you got to go off of.” And I went, “And you know, I mean, you know, don’t get too crazy and you know, but like, you know, start focusing on what you’re trying to say.”
31:2331 minutes, 23 secondsYou know, I mean, the worst thing for someone to go is walk up to a canvas and start painting. And someone goes like, “You got to paint your best artwork.”
31:3231 minutes, 32 secondsAnd it’s like, “Before I even start?” Like, “What are you talking about?”
31:3531 minutes, 35 secondsLike, “No, let me I’m I got to get a feel for the brush. I got to get a feel for what I’m doing, you know. No, man. That’s the wrong color. Orange.
31:4231 minutes, 42 secondsYeah. Like it’s it’s it’s so wild and and we’re I mean, you know, times have changed in a lot of ways. So, I don’t want to sound like some fun some ling
31:5031 minutes, 50 secondslike, oh, technology. None. It’s none of that. I I embrace it all. I embrace it all. I love it all. I mean, absolutely.
31:5731 minutes, 57 secondsUh I love the the kid who’s writing a song right now in his garage on on FL Studio or Yeah, I know, man.
32:0532 minutes, 5 secondsAnd it’s like, you know, look, these tools enable people now to do things that we could have only dreamed of, you know. I mean,
32:1332 minutes, 13 secondsI was telling you earlier, you know, I I my first synth was a Juno 106, you know,
32:1732 minutes, 17 secondsand I milt the hell out of that and I use that on on like, you know, at least a dozen albums, you know, different
32:2432 minutes, 24 secondsthings, but but ultimately now I have like, you know, 500 cents on my laptop. Yeah.
32:2932 minutes, 29 secondsYou know, I don’t make better music necessarily, but I love the idea of having that stuff, you That’s great.
32:3532 minutes, 35 secondsYeah. I tell them again telling these kids, I’m like, “Hey, man, like, you know, you have it way better than we did.
32:4232 minutes, 42 secondsYou know, you have more tools. You have everything. You know, you got all the colors.” Yeah.
32:4732 minutes, 47 secondsIn the in the all the crayons. Yeah. You got all the crayons now. You know,
32:5132 minutes, 51 secondsand then this one kid asked me, I was doing this uh um um thing at the Grammy Museum talk,
32:5832 minutes, 58 secondsand this one kid was like, “I want to make beats. I want to do this. I want to do that.” I’m like, “That’s great.” You know, at the end of the day, he walks up to me and he was like, “So, you said
33:0633 minutes, 6 secondsthat uh you there’s some jobs you didn’t get.” He goes, “Doesn’t that bother you?
33:1033 minutes, 10 secondsLike, doesn’t that like hurt your feelings?” And I’m like, “No, not at all, man.” And he was like, “What do you mean?” I’m like I go, “You want other people to win, too?”
33:2033 minutes, 20 secondsNot just that, but you know, it’s funny.
33:2233 minutes, 22 secondsSomebody said this to me once and it’s always stuck with me. It’s not just the doors that open, it’s the doors that close and send you in a different
33:3033 minutes, 30 secondsdirection. you know, all these things that I thought I wanted or I thought were going to be like, oh, the ultimate thing and it didn’t happen.
33:3833 minutes, 38 secondsAnd that’s okay, too. Yeah.
33:4033 minutes, 40 secondsBecause it made me go a different direction. It made me think about something else. It made me do something that I probably would not have done. Yeah. You know,
33:4833 minutes, 48 secondsand that and and you know, my answer to him was like, “Yeah, there’s he was like, “Doesn’t that bother you?” And I was like, “Well,
33:5533 minutes, 55 secondsthere’s records that I was up for that I didn’t get.”
33:5933 minutes, 59 secondsAnd then when I hear who did it, I get excited that I get to listen to a great record by a friend of mine or someone I
34:0634 minutes, 6 secondsdon’t know. I go I that’s the way I look at things. It’s like if I would have made that record, we would have done it.
34:1334 minutes, 13 secondsI probably wouldn’t have listened to it again. That’s true. Yeah. My wife played a record the other day.
34:2034 minutes, 20 secondsShe was like, it was an artist I did 25 years ago and she was like, I still love this record. And I was like, “Yeah.” And
34:2934 minutes, 29 secondsyou know, it did okay. You know, it didn’t didn’t light the world on fire,
34:3334 minutes, 33 secondsbut what does now? You know, it’s like that’s it, too. You know, nothing really does.
34:3834 minutes, 38 secondsNo, it’s funny, man. I um you know, when you talked about just having the honor of meeting, you know, people that you
34:4434 minutes, 44 secondssure appreciated. Um years ago, um I I met um person who’s become a good friend. Uh you know, Matt Wallace.
34:5334 minutes, 53 secondsOh, yeah. I know Matt.
34:5434 minutes, 54 secondsYeah. And Matt is an absolutely wonderful human being, super talented, you know,
34:5834 minutes, 58 secondsand uh we were talking about the fact that there had been this band that I I went to see them like three or four times. I really wanted to produce them.
35:0735 minutes, 7 secondsUm and they were called School of Fish. Oh, yeah. Remember them?
35:1035 minutes, 10 secondsOh, yeah. And Three Strange Days. Three. That’s right. That’s them. Yeah.
35:1435 minutes, 14 secondsAnd I was like, you know, I I was in the in in the pack of people wanting to produce them, you know, and
35:2135 minutes, 21 secondsMatt later on ended up hooking up with them and putting them on that John Hyatt album,
35:2635 minutes, 26 secondswhich I felt was like one of the best albums John Hyatt’s ever done, one of Matt’s best productions, you know, and I
35:3335 minutes, 33 secondssaid, man, you know, that was the right chemistry at the right time. you guys really connected all the dots, you know,
35:4035 minutes, 40 secondsand to me it gave me such joy to know that this these people got to work together. It’s
35:4735 minutes, 47 secondslike, okay, so I didn’t do that. You know what, man? I still to this day I love that album.
35:5335 minutes, 53 secondsYeah. I I I tell a lot of artists, you know, it’s like, hey, man, do what you feel is right.
35:5935 minutes, 59 secondsYeah. you know, you know, like I’ve done a lot of records with Jack Johnson and you know, uh I one day he was like,
36:0836 minutes, 8 seconds”Hey, I’m you know, can try some other stuff.” I was like, “Great, man.” Like, you know, you it’s all good. Have fun.
36:1436 minutes, 14 secondsAnd you know, everything you’ve done with him, by the way. Yeah. To your credit,
36:1836 minutes, 18 secondsa lot different, right? It’s like you’ve never done the same record twice. Yeah.
36:2236 minutes, 22 secondsYou know, and that is another great thing. It’s like because you got to be with the artist where they are now.
36:2836 minutes, 28 secondsAbsolutely. I would never want any artist to feel entitled or well, not entitled, but like handcuffed to me. Right. Right.
36:3536 minutes, 35 secondsThat’s terrible.
36:3636 minutes, 36 secondsIt’s like we’re not here to make version 2.0 of the same thing. No. You know, go ramble on. Yeah. That’s important to me. And again,
36:4336 minutes, 43 secondsthere’s records that I was like,
36:4636 minutes, 46 secondsyou know, got it on my desk and then I was like, didn’t do it and then was like, oh [ __ ] this record’s really good. This is not what I would have done.
36:5436 minutes, 54 secondsYeah. And and that’s important, too.
36:5636 minutes, 56 secondsIt is. It is. And you know that’s the things like I I love the fact that there are artists out there who have gone through multiple producers you know and
37:0437 minutes, 4 secondsI mean that’s one of the things that I think I mean to me the idea of there are
37:1037 minutes, 10 secondsproducers who like yourself um very no fingerprint of their their own right
37:1737 minutes, 17 secondsit’s like we’re here to support the artists there are other producers you know you’re talking about Roy Thomas Baker you know very definitive very definitive or Mut Lang you know for
37:2737 minutes, 27 secondsum Jeff Lynn, you know, correct? It’s like you hear their productions and you know right away, oh that’s that’s Jeff Lynn, you know that, you know, and that’s good too, you know, um because sometimes that’s what the artist needs.
37:3837 minutes, 38 secondsYou know, I was just listening to um a Seal track on the way over here, you know. Now,
37:4337 minutes, 43 secondsSeal without Trevor Horn would be a completely different artist,
37:4837 minutes, 48 secondsyou know, because that’s a collaboration. That’s a heavyhanded producer inside the process with the
37:5537 minutes, 55 secondsartists, you know, that’s not just a producer, that’s a collaborator, you know, and everybody collaborates differently.
38:0238 minutes, 2 secondsAnd you know, the way you collaborate on one record with somebody,
38:0538 minutes, 5 secondsa year or two later, they are in a completely different place as an artist. Yeah.
38:0938 minutes, 9 secondsYou’re in a completely different place as an artist. Yeah. You know, so when you come together again, it’s completely different relationship. Yeah. Yeah.
38:1638 minutes, 16 secondsWay different record making. I mean again even that you know one time I was with Bernie Kersh and he was doing uh Chicka GRP you know the band
38:2538 minutes, 25 secondsand um um and we’re in the studio and he’s working and I look at the console and he’s got no one EQ in you know and
38:3538 minutes, 35 secondshe’s got one phase button in you know and he’s got full setup Gambali uh Patatuchi um Wackle and chick, you know,
38:4838 minutes, 48 secondsand Madhatter Studios, you know, and I’m sitting there. Yeah. And I’m like,
38:5238 minutes, 52 seconds”Wow.” Like just just listening to what came out of the speakers, you know,
38:5638 minutes, 56 secondsbecause you don’t have to do anything to those guys, man. Yeah. He just did it. It was like his,
39:0039 minutesyou know, he was like, “If you can do this, this is great, right?” And then you work with somebody like again, you know, back in the day when you’re working with someone,
39:1139 minutes, 11 secondsthey come in and they got [ __ ] every EQ in and they’re doing it and it still sounds great as well. and you’re like, you know, yeah,
39:1739 minutes, 17 secondsyou know, so different styles,
39:1839 minutes, 18 secondsdifferent styles of who they are, what they do, how they capture stuff, you know, I’m I’m more of a, you know, in between because you learn that from people like, you know, right?
39:2739 minutes, 27 secondsYou do what you need to do when you need to do it to make it sound right.
39:3039 minutes, 30 secondsYou know, it’s funny. You just reminded me of this funny story that um Steve Genoick was telling me about um that
39:3839 minutes, 38 secondsthey were going through some of the gear at Capitol, right? and he said, you know, um I can’t remember who it was,
39:4439 minutes, 44 secondsbut it was it was um somebody had tried out a bunch of the compressors and they were like, you know, what do you mean these are good? These, you know, there’s
39:5239 minutes, 52 secondssomething wrong with you. You got to fix these, right? Well, Al said they were good, you know, and then you talk to Al and you realize Al doesn’t use
39:5939 minutes, 59 secondscompressors, you know. Of course he thinks they’re good because he’s never plugged them in, you know.
40:0440 minutes, 4 secondsIt’s like, yeah, you you you’ve got a completely different style of how you work, you know? And it’s like, yeah, all we’re doing is we’re taking these
40:1240 minutes, 12 secondsthings, these are these are paint brushes. Yeah. You know, and it’s in the hands of the artist.
40:1940 minutes, 19 secondsYeah. It’s funny. We had this we when Adats first came out. Like I remember
40:2640 minutes, 26 secondseverybody going like, “Oh, it’s going to sink the music bit. It’s going to sink the studio world. It’s going to, you know, it’s going to blah blah blah.” And I was like, “Nah, it’s not.” It’s like,
40:3640 minutes, 36 seconds”It’s not.” Um, and then we had this other, you know, and then ProTools was not that far away from there, you know,
40:4340 minutes, 43 secondswhen that when D88s and ADS came out and blah blah blah. It was like it was probably the new kit on the block, but it was gaining traction, you know.
40:5140 minutes, 51 secondsYeah. And it took over real quick after that. And um, you know, then people were like,
40:5640 minutes, 56 seconds”Oh, well, you know, the focus was uh digital audio workstations and what they what they what that did.” and you know
41:0441 minutes, 4 secondsand it’s like oh well this is going to and it’s like no it’s not going to take over either. It’s like it’s just it just a creative tool.
41:1141 minutes, 11 secondsYeah. That’s all it is. It’s the content, you know,
41:1441 minutes, 14 secondsand and and at some point again, I think we’re at that point now again, but now I think what we’re seeing with like a lot
41:2341 minutes, 23 secondsof studios closing and stuff like that is what we’re really seeing is that the industry, it’s not the gear that’s no,
41:3141 minutes, 31 secondsit’s the industry.
41:3341 minutes, 33 secondsIt’s the industry and it’s also the commodification of the product. And I hate to use the word product, but you
41:4041 minutes, 40 secondsknow, it’s I mean,
41:4341 minutes, 43 secondsand you know, I’m not going to like blame Spotify or anything like that, but you know, we’re to a point where music is no longer like, you know, you talk about music when you grew up, right?
41:5441 minutes, 54 secondsWhen we grew up, man, it was like you would sit there and you would listen to an album. You would really like grock the whole thing and you you know, and now it’s background music for a lot of people, you know?
42:0342 minutes, 3 secondsYeah. The attention span is different. Yeah, it is. It is. People make singles.
42:0742 minutes, 7 secondsThey don’t make albums. They don’t make a statement that’s a lengthy statement in that sense, you know. And if they do, it’s usually cut up into pieces anyway.
42:1442 minutes, 14 secondsYeah. You know, and so I think, you know, if somebody still has something great to say, they’re going to say it.
42:2242 minutes, 22 secondsYeah. And they’re going to say it no matter what, you know, and no matter what tools you put in their hands, you know, and if they don’t, you can put the
42:3042 minutes, 30 secondsgreatest, you know, highest technology in the world in their hands and they’re still going to come up with absolutely nothing worthwhile. Sure. You know,
42:3742 minutes, 37 secondsyeah. I mean, you know,
42:4042 minutes, 40 secondsYeah. I I I haven’t um bought into the fact of any of that of like oh well this is damaging this and
42:4942 minutes, 49 secondslike you know people are always talking about AI and all that kind of stuff. I’m like I’m not afraid of AI it’ll do what it’s done. I mean you know uh now you
42:5842 minutes, 58 secondsknow then you can go back and think about it and go like well you know the typewriter you know and go like okay
43:0543 minutes, 5 secondsbut how long was a typewriter around it lasted a long time.
43:0943 minutes, 9 secondsYeah. you know before it got and it has changed culture you know I mean the same way like u there are younger people now who don’t know how to
43:1843 minutes, 18 secondswrite cursive yeah or read cursive you know stuff like that you know and there are probably you know I mean you know it’s funny cuz uh I mean when I
43:2643 minutes, 26 secondsteach students now it’s like we’ve got you know we’ve got an old MCI 2 in in the corner right
43:3443 minutes, 34 secondsand I look at it and I think god I never want to align one of those again in my life you know but at the same time it’s like man I
43:4143 minutes, 41 secondscame up on that you will never know the experience of rolling tape. Yeah.
43:4643 minutes, 46 secondsYou know and in a way that’s okay you know it’s like okay you know it it’s it’s like you will probably never know
43:5543 minutes, 55 secondsthe experience of driving a stick shift car either. Does it matter?
44:0044 minutesThe car is going to get you from here to there. Yeah.
44:0244 minutes, 2 secondsYou know and it’s it’s great if you know how to do that. You know, I mean, I still, you know, I don’t mind wrenching on a car once in a while, you know, but
44:1144 minutes, 11 secondsyou can’t find a car now you can wrench on that you can wrench on, you know,
44:1544 minutes, 15 secondsseriously, you know, it’s like now it’s just like I’ll plug it in, you know,
44:1944 minutes, 19 secondscharge it up and I’m good to go, you know.
44:2144 minutes, 21 secondsYes. I’m hopeful. I mean, I you know, I look at the future and my from my perspective and I’m just like I, you
44:2844 minutes, 28 secondsknow, I mean, you know, I was, uh, doing this magazine interview and the lady asked me, um, is there anything about
44:3644 minutes, 36 secondsthe music you’re going to miss when you’re done? And I’m like, done? How?
44:4044 minutes, 40 secondsWhat do you mean done? She’s like, you know, just in general life and, you know, get older. And I’m like, no, as long as I have speakers that I can
44:4844 minutes, 48 secondslisten to music, I’m good. And I go, the only thing that will bum me out is I know that one day I’m going to die and I’m not going to be able to listen to music anymore.
44:5744 minutes, 57 secondsYeah.
44:5744 minutes, 57 secondsI go, that bums me out, but it doesn’t define a lot of things about what I’m talking about. But I’ve just bummed out
45:0445 minutes, 4 secondsthat like, oh man, I can’t imagine not listening to music, you know, and and as much as the music I work on and
45:1245 minutes, 12 secondsmix and do production and engineer and stuff, you know, I still put listen to music all the time. Yeah.
45:2045 minutes, 20 secondsYou know, I and mostly it’s a cross between old and new because I want to know what’s going on. I want to hear the new stuff, I want to hear it, you know,
45:2845 minutes, 28 secondsand I I’ll believe me, I’ve listened to stuff new and it’s a struggle to listen to it. Some of it is.
45:3545 minutes, 35 secondsAnd I sit there and going like, “Okay, this is this is probably not for me.”
45:4145 minutes, 41 secondsWell, you know, and and I mean, I can sound like I can sound like an old fart here if I say this, but you know, one of the things that has bugged me about some
45:5045 minutes, 50 secondsnewer music is the deevolution of melody. Yeah. Right. like, you know, and and I mean,
45:5845 minutes, 58 secondsour parents used to [ __ ] about this,
45:5945 minutes, 59 secondstoo. You know, it’s like, man, in the 1940s,
46:0346 minutes, 3 secondsyou could identify a song by just humming the melody. Yeah. You know, you can’t really do that anymore. The old gray whistle test. Yeah.
46:1046 minutes, 10 secondsExactly. Exactly. Thank you. You know,
46:1246 minutes, 12 secondsand and so, yeah, there’s been this sort of devolution. Um, Bernard and I were talking about this recently about how
46:2046 minutes, 20 secondsum, there was a station here in LA that did this mashup of stuff from the modern
46:2646 minutes, 26 secondsrock charts and it was literally like every single song was same key, same tempo, same mix, you know, and it’s
46:3646 minutes, 36 secondslike, yeah, you know, it’s formula, you know, and that kind of breaks my heart a little bit, but at the same time, every once in a while, you find that unicorn
46:4446 minutes, 44 secondsand it breaks Yeah,
46:4646 minutes, 46 secondsit just, you know, it might not h it might h not happen. Um well, and then we’re very critical, you know, so I try to be less critical about it. I’m like, what what’s what is it?
46:5646 minutes, 56 secondsSo, good luck with that. Yeah. So, I try to really just go like,
46:5946 minutes, 59 secondswell, what is this? You know, uh you know, when I hear someone talk about something that I’m not, you not my wheelhouse, I’ll go, okay, I I’ll give it a chance. I’ll listen to a whole
47:0747 minutes, 7 secondsrecord and go like, okay, I mean, it’s okay, you know, whatever. It’s not my thing or whatever it is. Um, my thing is
47:1447 minutes, 14 secondseverything. So, it’s like I want to be informed, but it’s more like if it’s not my thing,
47:1947 minutes, 19 secondsI think it’s more like it sounds too much like XYZ. You know, that’s another that’s that’s probably my biggest complaint about
47:2747 minutes, 27 seconds90% of what I hear right now is that it’s, you know, I’m looking for the original ideas. Yeah. I’m looking for the new stuff.
47:3347 minutes, 33 secondsYeah. I did a record, God, 10 years ago.
47:3747 minutes, 37 secondsNo, it was more than that. uh where the guy just did everything on a four track, you know, and he was like, “Can
47:4547 minutes, 45 secondsyou make this sound better?” And I was like, “I think you did a great job.”
47:5147 minutes, 51 secondsAnd he was like, he was, “No, it could be better.” I’m like, “If you’re asking me for my opinion, I’m telling you this
47:5847 minutes, 58 secondsis good.” Like it is. And he wouldn’t accept that, right? And I’m like, I go,
48:0448 minutes, 4 seconds”You’re trying to I’m You’re I go I’m trying not to,
48:1048 minutes, 10 secondshow would I put this?” I was like, “What do I say?” I said, “Oh, I’m trying to fire myself,
48:1548 minutes, 15 secondsyou know?” And he was like, “What do you mean?” I’m like, “I’m just telling you like this is really good.” Like the way it is like you can make it sonically better, maybe,
48:2348 minutes, 23 secondsyou know?
48:2448 minutes, 24 secondsYeah. I mean, it wasn’t even that. He did a great job at that, too. Four track. I love it. Yeah. And he was like he was like,
48:3048 minutes, 30 seconds”Yeah.” He goes, “I I’m confused about this record.” And I’m like I go, “I think you’re just been living with it too long. And I think you’re probably
48:3948 minutes, 39 secondstoo close to it now.” And I I could give you a bunch of reasons why you should have probably stopped, but you know, but you know, it’s great. It feels good.
48:4948 minutes, 49 secondsSounds good.
48:5048 minutes, 50 secondsAnd that’s it. You know, there it doesn’t need to be, you know, the highest fidelity. Right.
48:5648 minutes, 56 secondsIt’s like you did the you did the the hard pipe by writing these really good songs, you know,
49:0249 minutes, 2 secondsman. I mean, think about the stuff, you know, think about the stuff that came out in the 60s that came out of Mottown,
49:0749 minutes, 7 secondsyou know, with all those people recording to three track or four track,
49:1149 minutes, 11 secondsyou know, and in a room together, you know, and just like step forward to be louder and stuff like that, you know. I mean, man, sonically speaking, you know,
49:2049 minutes, 20 secondsI remember recently I heard a track from one of the first Rolling Stones albums and there were clamps all over it, you
49:2749 minutes, 27 secondsknow, but it was the essence of that performance. And you’re not going to get that if you keep trying for the perfection, you’re still not going to get it any better.
49:3649 minutes, 36 secondsYeah. You’re going to get it different.
49:3749 minutes, 37 secondsYeah. I had a this guy from Dana Point who’s a speaker company designer. He had like these huge electrostatic speakers
49:4549 minutes, 45 secondsand he came to me one day and he was like, “Oh, I use I use In between Dreams all the time to uh check my speakers with people and stuff and he was like,
49:5349 minutes, 53 seconds”You got to come over to my house one day and and and check it out.” So, you know, I was cool. was like I drove down to Dana Point and he’s got this designed room and the
50:0350 minutes, 3 secondsspeakers are like, you know, the the concrete slabs uh cut from the speakers and he’s got like, you know, it’s a
50:1050 minutes, 10 secondsmillion-dollar room kind of thing and he’s playing Jack he’s playing in between back to me and he’s I g you know, he asked me for a
50:1850 minutes, 18 secondshighde audio files so I I gave them to him because they weren’t available back then but and then he had the the you know he what he thought was the best cut
50:2650 minutes, 26 secondsof the record And you know, he’s playing it and he was like, “What do you think?”
50:2950 minutes, 29 secondsI said, “Yeah, it sounds good.” And he he was so he was like, “What do you mean it sounds good?” I’m like, he was like,
50:3650 minutes, 36 seconds”Yeah, it sounds great.” And he was like, “No, no, no. It sounds fantastic.”
50:4050 minutes, 40 secondsI went, “Yeah, I guess.” You know, I’m like, “I don’t know what to tell you.”
50:4350 minutes, 43 secondsAnd he was like, I go, “The songs move me the same.” Yeah. Yeah.
50:4950 minutes, 49 secondsLike if you know, if I heard it on a car a mono car speaker, it still remind you know.
50:5450 minutes, 54 secondsYeah. So he and he was like, “You won’t believe what I mixed these on.” And he was like, “What did you mix them on?” I go, “Pair of Genelc 1030s.” And he was like, “No, you didn’t.” I’m like,
51:0451 minutes, 4 seconds”Yeah.” So he came down to the studio one day. And I was like, “You know,
51:0851 minutes, 8 secondsthere’s bookshelf speakers about this big.” And he was like, “No, you didn’t.”
51:1251 minutes, 12 secondsI’m like, “I’m telling you, I mixed that whole record on these speakers.” Yep. And he was like, couldn’t believe it.
51:1651 minutes, 16 secondsAnd I’m like, “Yeah, man.” I go, “What you love about this record is the songs,
51:2151 minutes, 21 secondsright?” And I go and he was like it looked it was like I punched him in the face and then I slapped him and then he thought about it. He goes
51:2951 minutes, 29 secondslike, “You know what? You’re right. I just love these songs.” I went, “Yeah.”
51:3451 minutes, 34 secondsI mean, when you’re in your car, do you enjoy them? He was like, “Yeah.” I go I go, “You’re kind of focusing on the wrong thing.”
51:4151 minutes, 41 secondsWell, and you know, it’s so funny because I that’s another thing that always fascinates me. It’s like we we’re in a control room and we’re creating
51:5051 minutes, 50 secondsthis magic, right? and we’re part of that whole process and we’re listening to this stuff and ultimately nobody’s
51:5751 minutes, 57 secondsever going to experience it the same way we do whether we got the greatest speakers in the world or whether we’re listening on a pair of NS10s. You know,
52:0452 minutes, 4 secondsthe point is we’re there right then.
52:0752 minutes, 7 secondsWe’re experiencing it the way it is right there. You know, I remember um Zoe was telling me this story about Bine
52:1552 minutes, 15 secondsHorn uh wanting to have a um an a 2-in eight track, right? So they could do
52:2252 minutes, 22 secondsYeah. Yeah. I you and and you know, it’s like that’s great, but you know, Michael even said to me,
52:2852 minutes, 28 secondshe said, you know, we we listened and we realized no one else is ever going to hear it like this, you know. And that’s the thing, man.
52:3452 minutes, 34 secondsIt’s like we’re not creating it for us for that moment. We’re creating it so that hopefully it translates so that guy can have that joy.
52:4352 minutes, 43 secondsYeah.
52:4452 minutes, 44 secondsA week later, 6 months later, 10 years later, you know, I can still listen to those songs and go, “Oh, yeah. It still moves me.”
52:5452 minutes, 54 secondsYeah. And I, you know, I I’m uh it’s like this whole Dolby Atmos thing, you know, there’s a lot of Well, there’s a can of worms.
53:0253 minutes, 2 secondsYeah. You know, and and I I don’t mind it. I’ve done them. I’ve done it.
53:0653 minutes, 6 secondsYeah. Um I think uh I think it the technology is um very amazing. It’s like
53:1553 minutes, 15 secondsit’s interesting. Yeah. You know what I like about it is that you can get certain things. It’s not it’s not that you have it all around you. You can get things like heights.
53:2453 minutes, 24 secondsYou can you know different Yeah.
53:2653 minutes, 26 secondsYeah. I’ I’ I’ve done stuff where I’ve you know again because the biggest thing is like you can’t play it for anybody
53:3553 minutes, 35 secondsunless you’re you have them come over to your room or you go somewhere.
53:3953 minutes, 39 secondsSo you send them a binaural and you know some people could hear binaural really well and some people can’t, right?
53:4453 minutes, 44 secondsIt does give you a sense of space though. It does.
53:4653 minutes, 46 secondsYou know so there’s definitely some moments where you know I send it to somebody and they’re like wow like that guitar part really just feels like it’s standing out more.
53:5453 minutes, 54 secondsLike I never realized there was an acoustic guitar there.
53:5653 minutes, 56 secondsYeah. Yeah. And it’s very an very interesting thing and you know and it’s like there’s been a lot said about Dolby Atmos and what it is and what it’s not
54:0454 minutes, 4 secondsand you know I don’t care. It’s it’s you know if you enjoy doing it great if you can listen to it. I have a setup at home. It’s fine.
54:1254 minutes, 12 secondsI take it down. I put it up when I need it. You know it’s you know so you know again you everyone keeps on
54:2054 minutes, 20 secondspushing this thing with technology. It’s like, man, I I I understand it, but it’s still a good song is what matters. I hate to harp on it, but I just kind of,
54:3054 minutes, 30 secondsyou know, or at least something that moves you, whatever it is. It’s all about the talent. Yeah. You know, it really is, man. It’s like,
54:3654 minutes, 36 secondsyou know, those that talented human that birthed that idea,
54:4154 minutes, 41 secondsthat’s what matters, you know, and it’s like, you know, it’s like I have to I have to laugh all the time about these people who like they buy this piece of
54:4954 minutes, 49 secondsgear because somebody used it on that record or they buy, you know, this guitar because it’s the guitar that Jerry Garcia played just the other day.
54:5954 minutes, 59 secondsYeah. Right. You know,
55:0055 minutesit’s like that’s great, but you’re never going to play it that way. Yeah. I could give you the exact setup that George Martin used in Abby Road. You’re not gonna give me another Beatles, you know.
55:0955 minutes, 9 secondsUm, you know, u I mean,
55:1355 minutes, 13 secondsput Jeff Beck’s guitar in my hands. I’m not going to sound like him, you know. Yeah.
55:1755 minutes, 17 secondsAnd it’s just it’s all about the combination of all of these elements. Yeah. And that’s lightning in a bottle, man.
55:2455 minutes, 24 secondsAgain, I remember again going back to like hearing Zeppelin and Black Sabbath and I remember my brother played me the Sex Pistols and I was like, “What is this?”
55:3455 minutes, 34 secondsRight. Raw power, man.
55:3655 minutes, 36 secondsYeah. I was like, “What is this?” And then it was like bing like just another moment of something going like, “Why is
55:4455 minutes, 44 secondsthis turning? Why is this making me feel this way? Why is this making me, you know, I you know, I go like, you know,
55:5055 minutes, 50 secondssometimes music wants to make you get a brick and throw it through a window, you know? I won’t do it, but it makes me want to feel that way. And I’m like, you
55:5755 minutes, 57 secondsknow, and I’m like, that’s always my goal. Every time I want someone to feel it and go like, I’m moved by this, good or bad.
56:0556 minutes, 5 secondsYeah.
56:0556 minutes, 5 secondsYou know, it doesn’t matter as long as you feel something about it. And I I remember that, you know, again, like um you know,
56:1456 minutes, 14 secondsI took my mom to the Grammys, you know, to you know, I didn’t win. Oh, Chad won. Good for Chad.
56:2056 minutes, 20 secondsThat’s okay. Yeah. Yeah. But it got nominated you know for that one for particular record. Um and so she went with me and you know was sitting there
56:2956 minutes, 29 secondsand and she was enjoying herself like you know my wife her parents came and you know they were like do you feel bad you know how you oh they were like sorry
56:3856 minutes, 38 secondsyou lost and I was like sorry I lost my friend won. I’m excited for him.
56:4256 minutes, 42 secondsYeah you know and she was like oh wow that’s an interesting way to feel about competition. I’m like there is no
56:5056 minutes, 50 secondscompetition. It’s not. And that’s it right there. And that’s the thing that always, you know, I see this happen so
56:5656 minutes, 56 secondsmany times. And you know, it’s like and and people make this [ __ ] up, man. It’s like, you know, you remember the the um
57:0357 minutes, 3 secondswhat was it? Oasis and Blur, right? That thing, you know, it’s like and you know,
57:0957 minutes, 9 secondsit’s like no, you’re not the best band since the Beatles. You’re not the you know, it’s like they’re different. They’re always going to be different and we’re all in our own lane.
57:1857 minutes, 18 secondsYeah. And that is the way it should be.
57:2057 minutes, 20 secondsYeah. Because I’m making a personal statement. That artist is making a personal statement. That artist, you know, they’re they’re not going to be in competition with each other.
57:3057 minutes, 30 secondsYeah. I always tell them, you know who wins when you write a song? Everybody. Yeah.
57:3557 minutes, 35 secondsBecause some people will hate it and some people will love it. And if you touch that one person who loves it and that’s, you know, save the day, save anything,
57:4457 minutes, 44 secondsyou won. You won.
57:4557 minutes, 45 secondsYeah. You know, I’ve had people come up to me and be like, you know, man, that record, blah, blah, blah. I was like, I
57:5257 minutes, 52 secondsdidn’t write the record. Like, I I appreciate that you really love the record, but I just recorded it. I was there. I was there, you know, I was the help.
58:0158 minutes, 1 secondYeah.
58:0158 minutes, 1 secondYou know, and they were like, but but I’m like I go, I will relay that to the artist. Yeah.
58:0758 minutes, 7 secondsYou know, because I, you know, what I’ve people come up to me and go like, save my life. I was like, I will tell the artist that, you know, and and and um you know,
58:1658 minutes, 16 secondsit’s weird if you know, again, you get locked in with these things because you’re part of it. Yeah. You know,
58:2258 minutes, 22 secondsbut then the cool thing is that the artist will then say, “Yeah, but you helped me and you were part of the experience and man, that means the world to me.” Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
58:3058 minutes, 30 secondsThat that is also such a wonderful thing. It’s like, “Okay, I was there. I helped. You know, I’m cool with that.”
58:3758 minutes, 37 secondsYeah. I tell every band I all the new bands I, you know, have meetings with or we get together, I’m like, you know, I tell them, “You don’t know the bands that failed.” And they laugh and I go,
58:4958 minutes, 49 secondsthey’re like, “What do you mean?” I go,
58:5058 minutes, 50 seconds”You only know my successes. You don’t know my failures.” Right? I go,
58:5458 minutes, 54 seconds”Let me show you who they were.” You know, and they’ll go, “Never heard of them.” You know,
58:5958 minutes, 59 secondsor like, you know, and I mean, I know you’ve got this too, man. I’ve got a collection of songs that are on my playlist that no one else has ever heard or maybe 10 people have heard, you know,
59:0959 minutes, 9 secondscuz they never came out, but still to me, they’re like my favorites, you know,
59:1359 minutes, 13 secondsthey’re still my kids, you know, there’s still things that I love to hear. And it’s so funny, man, cuz you know, I was
59:2059 minutes, 20 secondsI was on a road trip with somebody and a couple things came on my my playlist and and he was like, “Who’s this?” And oh,
59:2859 minutes, 28 secondsyou know, it’s somebody you’ve never heard of, right? at night and and I’ve got stories about the sessions, you know, but I’ve got the, you know, and like to me it meant something to them.
59:3759 minutes, 37 secondsIt’s like, oh, okay, whatever. Good song. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It’s passive. Yeah. You know, exactly. It’s like again,
59:4559 minutes, 45 secondsyou know, you listen to music and, you know, um there’s some stuff that can just move you, you know, and there’s some I mean,
59:5159 minutes, 51 secondsyou know, I can hear a good song and go like, “Wow, that’s a great song.”
59:5559 minutes, 55 secondsLike there’s everything about it feels great. And you know, and and you know, and you see it kind of start dying on the vine. Yeah.
1:00:031 hour, 3 secondsAnd you’re like, “Oh, [ __ ] I really thought that was going to do something for that person.” Yeah.
1:00:071 hour, 7 secondsYou know, I’m still They’ve changed. Yeah. You know, and that’s it, too. You know, it’s like you get this band at a certain point in time and then, you know, a year goes by.
1:00:171 hour, 17 secondsWell, they’ve moved on. They’ve, you know, like maybe they’ve quote unquote divorced, you know, maybe they’ve moved in different directions. you know, it’s
1:00:261 hour, 26 secondslike you were there at that particular moment and that’s great.
1:00:281 hour, 28 secondsYeah. I’ve had moments again, like I said, where you’re like, “God, this is heavy, you know.” And then I’ve had moments when I’ve seen people come in,
1:00:371 hour, 37 secondsthey romanticize what it is to be a a record maker, you know. Yeah.
1:00:421 hour, 42 secondsAnd you know, and and you know, I’m like I tell people a lot, I’m like, “Yeah, I’m an engineer by the the brand of it.
1:00:491 hour, 49 secondsI’m a mixer by the brand of it.” You know, you can call me a producer by the brand of it, but if you put me in the list, I’m engineer,
1:01:021 hour, 1 minute, 2 secondsmixer, producer, right? And I’m like,
1:01:051 hour, 1 minute, 5 secondsI’m fine with that. That’s kind of, you know, but but really I’m a, you know, I
1:01:111 hour, 1 minute, 11 secondslike Steve Albini. I love Steve. I think he was the purest form of making records. Yes. To a fault.
1:01:191 hour, 1 minute, 19 secondsYes. To a fault. Thank you. Yes. you know, it’s like you I got, you know,
1:01:231 hour, 1 minute, 23 secondsthere was times when I kind of get into an argument with about certain things and like, you know, that’s a whole story. But,
1:01:291 hour, 1 minute, 29 secondsyou know, you know, I looked at him as the purest, you know, form of of making records. It’s like, you know, Yeah.
1:01:361 hour, 1 minute, 36 secondsAnd I’m like, I’m not that cuz I, you know, that that was him. And do you want to be?
1:01:411 hour, 1 minute, 41 secondsYeah. He didn’t want to be either, you know. And like you look at someone like Michael Binhorn,
1:01:461 hour, 1 minute, 46 secondsyou know, we all know his stories. you know, I’ll take you forever to work on this or that and that. Yep. That’s great.
1:01:531 hour, 1 minute, 53 secondsMhm.
1:01:541 hour, 1 minute, 54 secondsI would work, you know, again, Roy Thomas Baker,
1:01:571 hour, 1 minute, 57 secondsthat’s the way he works. That’s the way he works. RTB worked.
1:01:591 hour, 1 minute, 59 secondsThat’s the way his Yeah. Roy Thomas would bring in [ __ ] 10 Marshals and then mic everyone, make notes. Hey, take that. I’ll take that. I’ll take that.
1:02:091 hour, 2 minutes, 9 secondsAnd send the rest back. Yeah.
1:02:111 hour, 2 minutes, 11 secondsAnd then you work with someone else who walks in and throws a 57 on it and it sounds great.
1:02:161 hour, 2 minutes, 16 secondsYeah. Yeah. Exactly. It’s like there’s no rhyme or reason to any of this. And the only thing that you you really need
1:02:241 hour, 2 minutes, 24 secondsto know is when you know when to go like, “Okay, we’re done.”
1:02:271 hour, 2 minutes, 27 secondsRight. Right. That was it. That’s what we were trying to capture right there.
1:02:321 hour, 2 minutes, 32 secondsYou know, and and even then we’re all just guessing. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Hopefully we guess right.
1:02:371 hour, 2 minutes, 37 secondsYeah. I I I I kind of perfected that of getting done like when we go like Okay.
1:02:441 hour, 2 minutes, 44 secondsUh,
1:02:461 hour, 2 minutes, 46 secondsyou know, it’s not about the lists you have on the wall. Tambourine, I have overdoses, percussion, blah blah blah.
1:02:521 hour, 2 minutes, 52 secondsWhat it is, I I’ve stopped bands from like it doesn’t need this piano. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, that’s that’s a good point right there,
1:03:001 hour, 3 minutesman. It’s like, you know, you get to the point where, you know,
1:03:031 hour, 3 minutes, 3 secondsokay, that’s what we were looking for right there. We achieved it. You know,
1:03:071 hour, 3 minutes, 7 secondsand a lot of times, I mean, most of the time the band still wants to keep going. Yeah. It’s like, no, no, no, we have to deal. No, you don’t. Yeah.
1:03:141 hour, 3 minutes, 14 secondsYou know, it’s beautiful just like it is. Leave it alone.
1:03:181 hour, 3 minutes, 18 secondsBut the other side of it is I definitely don’t want to discourage. Oh, no, no, no. You know, no.
1:03:231 hour, 3 minutes, 23 secondsSo, I always It’s all It’s always delicate hands. Yep.
1:03:271 hour, 3 minutes, 27 secondsAnd it’s always like, “Okay, go. Let’s do it.” You know, mike the piano up,
1:03:301 hour, 3 minutes, 30 secondslet’s go. And then play it. And then it’s like when he starts rumaging around and he’s like trying to figure something out, I’m
1:03:391 hour, 3 minutes, 39 secondslike I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to give him two hours, an hour, you know.” Yeah.
1:03:451 hour, 3 minutes, 45 secondsGo figure it out. And then when he comes back, he goes, “Ah, I don’t know.” I go I go, “Well, maybe you should work on it at home.” Yeah.
1:03:511 hour, 3 minutes, 51 secondsYou know, I go, “It’s fine. We’ll come back.”
1:03:541 hour, 3 minutes, 54 secondsAnd most of the time they come back and they’re like, “Yeah, I don’t think it needs it.”
1:03:581 hour, 3 minutes, 58 secondsYeah. Yeah. You know what I what I like to tell a lot of the artists that I’ve worked with is you have like a block of clay. Yeah.
1:04:051 hour, 4 minutes, 5 secondsAnd you’re just cutting away the parts that don’t sound like the song. Yeah. You know, it’s kind of what it is, man.
1:04:111 hour, 4 minutes, 11 secondsIt’s like, you know, you can pile so much, especially now with a DAW, you know, you can pile, you know, 150 tracks
1:04:181 hour, 4 minutes, 18 secondsof [ __ ] on there. Yeah. You know, and ultimately, I mean, you know, there are brilliant people out there who can comp a vocal out of, you know, 27 takes, you
1:04:271 hour, 4 minutes, 27 secondsknow, like Phineas or somebody, you know, but ultimately, man, you know, I love the idea of like, can I get one
1:04:351 hour, 4 minutes, 35 secondsvocal take? Maybe it’s not even a comp of two takes. Maybe it’s just, you know, that would be the the ultimate. Usually doesn’t happen.
1:04:421 hour, 4 minutes, 42 secondsYeah. But, you know, I kind of liked the power of those limits of having to commit, you know, of having to make
1:04:501 hour, 4 minutes, 50 secondsdecisions. Those decisions are your friends, you know, because otherwise,
1:04:531 hour, 4 minutes, 53 secondsman, you end up with a screen full of [ __ ] You have no idea what you have. Yeah.
1:04:581 hour, 4 minutes, 58 secondsYou know, I I tell people because some people are always like, “I want to come by the studio.” I’m like, “You want to see how the sausage made or you just want to enjoy the sausage?”
1:05:071 hour, 5 minutes, 7 secondsExactly. Exactly. It’s like, man, you don’t you don’t want to be here for that, you know? It’s like, you know, and I go and it’s it’s usually a place where,
1:05:151 hour, 5 minutes, 15 secondsyou know, trust. There’s a huge trust,
1:05:171 hour, 5 minutes, 17 secondsyou know, and like my wife in the early days, she would come by and she was like, “God, it’s [ __ ] boring.” And I’m like, “Yes.” Oh, my wife was the same way.
1:05:251 hour, 5 minutes, 25 secondsIt could be very boring. And she’d be like, “Yeah.” She’s like, “I like the popcorn they give you.” And I’m like I’m like, “Yeah, you know, it’s, you know,
1:05:331 hour, 5 minutes, 33 secondsgo to Paris and make a record.” And she’s like, you know, called me and she’s, you know,
1:05:391 hour, 5 minutes, 39 secondswhat what did you do today? I go, I woke up. I went to the studio.
1:05:441 hour, 5 minutes, 44 secondsWe never left. We ordered in uh got on the train, went back to my hotel, passed out.
1:05:531 hour, 5 minutes, 53 secondsYeah. But you’re in Paris.
1:05:561 hour, 5 minutes, 56 secondsExactly. And then she goes, “What are you doing?” I went, “I’m doing that every day. The same thing. I don’t I mean Sunday we have off Sunday I’m sleeping all day.
1:06:061 hour, 6 minutes, 6 secondsYeah.
1:06:071 hour, 6 minutes, 7 secondsYou know it’s like you know and it’s one of those things where you’re like yeah it’s not as glamorous as people think it ain’t exotic. It’s really you know
1:06:141 hour, 6 minutes, 14 secondsthat’s the thing and and that’s you know my wife was the same way you know and we lived in Germany for a long time. And I was like you know Yeah. But I’m going to
1:06:221 hour, 6 minutes, 22 secondsEngland but I’m doing the same thing that I did here in Germany. I’m just doing it in a different studio.
1:06:281 hour, 6 minutes, 28 secondsDifferent place. A different a different room with no windows.
1:06:311 hour, 6 minutes, 31 secondsRight. Exactly. You know, and a different a different one of these, you know, and maybe some different boxes on the in the rack, you know, but it’s it’s it’s all the same stuff, man. You know,
1:06:401 hour, 6 minutes, 40 secondsit’s true. It’s true.
1:06:411 hour, 6 minutes, 41 secondsThat was a that was a thing. Again, go back to like Gabe, you know, he was like, you know, anyone can do this. This
1:06:481 hour, 6 minutes, 48 secondsis not hard to learn, but what’s what is something that you pick up over years is your opinion and your taste.
1:06:551 hour, 6 minutes, 55 secondsYeah. and that you can’t substitute what I hear as my what I think is great, what you hear is what you think is great,
1:07:011 hour, 7 minutes, 1 secondwhat Dave heard or anybody. And it’s it’s that’s why some people are just they have a taste that is beyond I mean Quincy is one of those guys, you know,
1:07:111 hour, 7 minutes, 11 secondsQuincy was amazing, tasteful and everything he did. Um, hell of a producer. I mean, you know. Yeah. It’s like,
1:07:191 hour, 7 minutes, 19 secondsyeah, I’m not Quincy.
1:07:221 hour, 7 minutes, 22 secondsI I don’t want to be Quincy. I I enjoy what he did, but like I do things my way and you Yeah, that’s what I was going to say is you wouldn’t do it the same way
1:07:301 hour, 7 minutes, 30 secondseven if you were in the room with the same artist, you know, we have our different methodologies. You know,
1:07:361 hour, 7 minutes, 36 secondsI really appreciate like um you know Mitchell F. I love Mitchell.
1:07:401 hour, 7 minutes, 40 secondsBrilliant. Brilliant. But, you know, I listen to some of the things the I I listen like I listen to a crowded house record and I think the fact that you made that decision,
1:07:511 hour, 7 minutes, 51 secondsyou know, that’s a decision that I probably would have never made.
1:07:541 hour, 7 minutes, 54 secondsDo I love it? Absolutely. It was right for the record, for the song, for the artist right then. Would I have done that? No. No freaking way. Yeah.
1:08:021 hour, 8 minutes, 2 secondsYou know, and it’s not that I think it was a bad idea. It’s just my mind doesn’t work that way. You know, maybe it would have if I was with that artist at that time.
1:08:111 hour, 8 minutes, 11 secondsYeah. There’s just some people who are just them. Tom Weights being one of them. Oh, Tom Weights. Definitely.
1:08:171 hour, 8 minutes, 17 secondsIt’s like that’s No one can explain Tom Weights. No one should ever try. No one No one wants to. Yeah. Please. You know.
1:08:231 hour, 8 minutes, 23 secondsAgain, just all the artists you you look at as as you know, over the years, you know, again, I I feel like my time frame
1:08:311 hour, 8 minutes, 31 secondsof being in this business is kind of been part of the best time. Yeah, some very
1:08:381 hour, 8 minutes, 38 secondsvery unique artists. You know, we grew up with some of the most unique artists,
1:08:431 hour, 8 minutes, 43 secondsman. You know, I read recently um Shell Silverstein’s biography. Oh, wow.
1:08:481 hour, 8 minutes, 48 secondsMan, you know, I mean, there was a guy who really I mean, you know, again, you talk about like guys like Tom Weights,
1:08:541 hour, 8 minutes, 54 secondsyou know, these are people who they’re singular human beings, Hunter Thompson, you know, it’s like you could never be that person. You
1:09:021 hour, 9 minutes, 2 secondswould never want to be that person. you would kill yourself, you know, and they probably eventually, well, they eventually did kill themselves, you
1:09:111 hour, 9 minutes, 11 secondsknow, but they took it to the limit, right? That’s who they were,
1:09:151 hour, 9 minutes, 15 secondsyou know, and that’s brilliant. And somebody has to be that person. Yeah.
1:09:191 hour, 9 minutes, 19 secondsIt ain’t going to be you. It ain’t going to be me, but you know,
1:09:221 hour, 9 minutes, 22 secondskudos to them for being who they are because God knows they helped form who we are.
1:09:261 hour, 9 minutes, 26 secondsYeah. I mean, I I I we lost Azie, you know. Yeah.
1:09:301 hour, 9 minutes, 30 secondsAnd um there’s another one. Yeah. And uh you remember Devincure? Yeah.
1:09:341 hour, 9 minutes, 34 secondsSo he was working at Devonshire and I was at Track Record which was just around the corner. Yeah. Yeah.
1:09:391 hour, 9 minutes, 39 secondsSo um there was a liquor store right on Devonshire on the corner of Magnolia and and was in Vinland or whatever it is and
1:09:491 hour, 9 minutes, 49 secondsum you went to go I don’t get something and I walking by Aussiey’s in the [ __ ] liquor store buying some booze, you know,
1:09:561 hour, 9 minutes, 56 secondslike you do. Yeah. And I was like, and it’s that thing where you’re like, I’m gonna That’s that’s Aussie, you know.
1:10:031 hour, 10 minutes, 3 secondsYou know, and I was like, but you know,
1:10:061 hour, 10 minutes, 6 secondsI know my place as well. I just like Aussie, what’s up, man? He was like, hey, what you doing? I’m like, you know, I’m an assistant down the way, you know.
1:10:151 hour, 10 minutes, 15 secondsHe was like, oh, cool. He was like, you ever been to Devonshire? I was like,
1:10:191 hour, 10 minutes, 19 secondsyeah, I know. He was like, walk me to the studio. So, I was like, yeah, sure.
1:10:241 hour, 10 minutes, 24 secondsSo, I’m walking with Aussie on Magnolia down to Davenshire and then he’s like, “Come on in. Come on in.” And I’m like,
1:10:321 hour, 10 minutes, 32 secondsyou know, the guys are looking at me like, “This [ __ ] guy you just brought in, you know, and he’s what do you think?” He’s like listening playing a song for me, you know, they’re playing
1:10:401 hour, 10 minutes, 40 secondsand I’m like, “Wow, this is great.” You know, and he sits down and he cracks a beer, you know, and everyone’s looking around and going like, you know, like
1:10:501 hour, 10 minutes, 50 secondsAussie should not. I later found out that Aussie was not supposed to be drinking, you know, you know, and I was like, “Okay.” But it was a moment,
1:10:571 hour, 10 minutes, 57 secondsright? So, it was that moment where again, I want to tell him how much Black
1:11:051 hour, 11 minutes, 5 secondsSabbath and what it meant to me being that young and my uncle playing the record for me, right?
1:11:121 hour, 11 minutes, 12 secondsYeah. And I was like I was like Aussie you probably hear this all the time man but the first time I had I heard Black Sabbath you know it was a it was moving
1:11:211 hour, 11 minutes, 21 secondspictures in my head you know he was like oh great like you know he was he just kind of was the nicest person you could talk to.
1:11:301 hour, 11 minutes, 30 secondsWe spent like 20 minutes talking a little bit and then I was like I got to get back you know and he was like no
1:11:371 hour, 11 minutes, 37 secondsproblem come by anytime you know. I was like he’s great. So, you know, I didn’t see him for a while and then, you know,
1:11:451 hour, 11 minutes, 45 secondstime goes by. He says, “It does.” And I was at some event and he was standing there, you know, and he was just kind of
1:11:521 hour, 11 minutes, 52 secondslike looking at everyone like tripping out and he was like, “I know you.” And I was like, he goes,
1:11:591 hour, 11 minutes, 59 seconds”I don’t remember your name, but I know you.” And I was like, “It’s Robert,
1:12:021 hour, 12 minutes, 2 secondsman.” He was like, “We were on Devonshire.” He was like, “Oh, yeah, yeah.” You know,
1:12:061 hour, 12 minutes, 6 secondsand he was like, “Oh, man.” He goes, “I thought about what you told me a lot.”
1:12:101 hour, 12 minutes, 10 secondsHe was when you were talking about you were in a black room listening to Black Sabbath for the first time and the pictures in your head. He was like
1:12:181 hour, 12 minutes, 18 secondsthat’s exactly what we tried to accomplish. And I well you guys did a great job at it. You know and you know sometimes it’s really great that they get to hear that.
1:12:261 hour, 12 minutes, 26 secondsYeah. Yeah. You know, I’m really shy about talking to people like that or they kind of like because I, you know, I
1:12:331 hour, 12 minutes, 33 secondswork with a lot of people who are misfits and sometimes they’re, you know,
1:12:381 hour, 12 minutes, 38 secondsthe bigger they are, the more misfit they are. Sometimes sometimes a lot of them, man, you know, misunderstood.
1:12:461 hour, 12 minutes, 46 secondsYeah. You know, I I um big influence on me growing up was Al Cooper. Oh, yeah.
1:12:521 hour, 12 minutes, 52 secondsOkay. And uh few years ago I ran into Al in the aisles of a NAM show, right? And
1:13:001 hour, 13 minutesyou know walked up and introduced myself said, “Man, I just want you to know, you know, you are a huge influence on on me having a career in the music industry.”
1:13:111 hour, 13 minutes, 11 secondsShaking his hand. Yeah. Without missing a beat, he’s still shaking my hand. He just goes, “Don’t blame me, man.”
1:13:181 hour, 13 minutes, 18 secondsYeah. You know, it’s like I mean I’m glad that I’ve had that opportunity to talk to people and tell them stuff like that. On the other hand, man, you know,
1:13:271 hour, 13 minutes, 27 secondsit’s like you got to treat them like normal people, too. Yeah. It’s very interesting. You know,
1:13:321 hour, 13 minutes, 32 secondsagain, you know, um again, being a young I mean, if you know, if you told me when I was 12 years old that I would be a
1:13:411 hour, 13 minutes, 41 secondsmaking a living raking records, I would say, “You’re crazy. I’m going to be a rock star.” Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same here.
1:13:461 hour, 13 minutes, 46 secondsAnd you know, you’re you’re on your path doing whatever you do. And then these roles happen and you’re like, “Okay.” I mean, the first time we were in a
1:13:531 hour, 13 minutes, 53 secondsstudio, I remember going like, “What is that guy doing in that room?” Yeah.
1:13:571 hour, 13 minutes, 57 secondsYou know, and then I sat in that room with the engineer and you know, I was like, “Well, what is this doing this?”
1:14:021 hour, 14 minutes, 2 secondsAnd he was like, “Kid, I think you’re in the wrong business.” You That’s what he told me. You seems like you’re you’re lining up more about this stuff than making a record. Well, and and you know,
1:14:131 hour, 14 minutes, 13 secondsthat’s something I’ve always been fascinated by is the way we kind of like one path leads to another path to another and stuff like that, you know,
1:14:211 hour, 14 minutes, 21 secondsand I think that’s I mean, there’s a beauty to that and there really is. And there’s a beauty to being able to adapt and accept that.
1:14:291 hour, 14 minutes, 29 secondsIt’s like, oh, you know what? No, I actually I want to go over there, you know. And I used to joke about it, call it, you know, short attention span
1:14:361 hour, 14 minutes, 36 secondstheater, you know, but in a way it’s like that’s kind of what makes us the artistic people that we are. It’s
1:14:441 hour, 14 minutes, 44 secondslike, you know, I’m not just fixated on this one thing and I’ll never do anything else. You know, this is what I want to do and now that’s what I want to do. And you know, I did that. You know,
1:14:541 hour, 14 minutes, 54 secondsit’s like I I was when I when I worked at Cherokee, you know, I watched the engineers and oh, I really want to drive
1:15:031 hour, 15 minutes, 3 secondsthe the, you know, the A- range, you know, and so I would do the sessions,
1:15:071 hour, 15 minutes, 7 secondsyou know, cuz that was the thing at Cherokee was that, you know, at night when no one was there, you could, you know,
1:15:111 hour, 15 minutes, 11 secondsgo and do stuff. And that’s what I I would, you know, I learned all my all all my chops on an A- range, which was wonderful, you know,
1:15:181 hour, 15 minutes, 18 secondsbut as soon as I started doing that, you know, when I when, you know, we’re talking about getting fired from Cherokee, and when I got fired from
1:15:251 hour, 15 minutes, 25 secondsCherokee, uh, literally like two days later, I got hired at Paramount as an engineer. Oh.
1:15:301 hour, 15 minutes, 30 secondsAnd so I’m working there and I’m doing session after session, three sessions a day, 18 hour days, and I’m like, you
1:15:381 hour, 15 minutes, 38 secondsknow, this is not what I thought it was going to be. Yeah. you know, I want to do something else. You know, it’s like once you reach that point, once you
1:15:461 hour, 15 minutes, 46 secondsreach that pinnacle, there’s a new pinnacle. Yeah.
1:15:491 hour, 15 minutes, 49 secondsYou know, and there’s something else over there that looks interesting.
1:15:521 hour, 15 minutes, 52 secondsYeah. I kind of My wife was always telling me, she was like, “Well, what when are you going to stop?” And I go, I was like, “Well, my phone’s still
1:15:591 hour, 15 minutes, 59 secondsringing.” And I go, I guess when I I’ll stop when I don’t feel excited about
1:16:071 hour, 16 minutes, 7 secondsgoing into track a record. I go I I still get nervous and butterflies. Yeah.
1:16:151 hour, 16 minutes, 15 secondsTo go into a tracking room thoroughly prepared in my mind what I know I need to do. But I know I know how to make records.
1:16:241 hour, 16 minutes, 24 secondsThat’s Yeah. I just know how to make records. I can showc I’ worked in I’ve worked in rooms all around the world. I could do it.
1:16:321 hour, 16 minutes, 32 secondsYou know, signal flow is signal flow no matter what the console is, whatever it is, you know. Exactly.
1:16:361 hour, 16 minutes, 36 secondsIt’s like But I still feel like excited when we first start working and getting the sound up.
1:16:431 hour, 16 minutes, 43 secondsYeah. you know, and then you you you learn these things like you know, um like I worked with this band and and
1:16:511 hour, 16 minutes, 51 secondslike you know, when I first had my first session with this big band, I won’t throw them under the bus, but they they
1:16:581 hour, 16 minutes, 58 secondsthey walk in and they’re all and I’m sitting there and I’m like, “Yeah, like this sounds [ __ ] great.” You know,
1:17:051 hour, 17 minutes, 5 secondsand they come in and they go, “Yeah, all right. Let’s go do another take, you know?” And then I was like, “Oh,
1:17:131 hour, 17 minutes, 13 secondsI was like,
1:17:141 hour, 17 minutes, 14 secondsyou you mean you didn’t like rave over it?”
1:17:171 hour, 17 minutes, 17 secondsYeah. And then the guitar player comes in and he was like he was like, “Uh, sounds great.”
1:17:241 hour, 17 minutes, 24 secondsYou know, and I was like, “Oh, good. I didn’t know if you guys liked it.” And he was like,
1:17:281 hour, 17 minutes, 28 seconds”Yeah, man. You’re not going to get a lot of people to get excited about this,
1:17:321 hour, 17 minutes, 32 secondsbut you know you’re doing good when you don’t get fired.”
1:17:351 hour, 17 minutes, 35 secondsYeah. Yeah. And you and that’s part of it, too, man. is like, you know, you say, “I’m always excited about going in.” And I get that, too. But, you know,
1:17:421 hour, 17 minutes, 42 secondsthe other thing about it is it’s like you get in there and all of a sudden you realize, okay, I have to read this room.
1:17:491 hour, 17 minutes, 49 secondsI have to learn about these people because this is a totally different personalities from the last thing I did.
1:17:551 hour, 17 minutes, 55 secondsAnd these are different people and they’re different. They’re at a different point in their lives, you know, in their careers. And, you know,
1:18:021 hour, 18 minutes, 2 secondsmaybe they’re not going to be impressed by what I think are my great chops, you know.
1:18:051 hour, 18 minutes, 5 secondsYeah. I think it was Chris Shaw who told this story about being in the was mixing something for Bob Dylan and I think it
1:18:141 hour, 18 minutes, 14 secondswas Chris Shaw and he was or maybe he told a story I don’t remember but you know Bob comes in and he’s making a you
1:18:221 hour, 18 minutes, 22 secondsknow a rough mix for the night you know and then he’s like doing a rough mix and then Bob sits there and he was like great you know he’s like he was like
1:18:301 hour, 18 minutes, 30 secondsjust lay it down and he was like yeah I’ll do a little rough and he was like he I’ll make it better And he was like, “Better than what?”
1:18:381 hour, 18 minutes, 38 secondsAnd he was like, you know, and I and I thought about that because I’ve been in that situation, you know, where, you know, I mean, Chris tells a story that
1:18:461 hour, 18 minutes, 46 secondslike, yeah, he was like, “Oh, it really it I learned something that day.” And I had that same experience with Los Loos.
1:18:551 hour, 18 minutes, 55 secondsSo, we’re doing a thing called the We did a song, a record from Live from the Filmore and I was at O’Henry.
1:19:031 hour, 19 minutes, 3 secondsOh, I I used to love that. Yeah, the Oh,
1:19:051 hour, 19 minutes, 5 secondsHenry on Magnolia or or when it was in his house?
1:19:081 hour, 19 minutes, 8 secondsNot in the house. Okay. So, um we’re at this Magnolia and um so I’m got the SSL
1:19:151 hour, 19 minutes, 15 secondsup. I’m mixing, you know, mixing and then uh the guys are on tour and then I,
1:19:201 hour, 19 minutes, 20 secondsyou know, sent them a couple mixes to listen to and then the guys call me and they’re on speaker phone and they’re like I’m like, “Yeah, what do you guys think?”
1:19:301 hour, 19 minutes, 30 secondsAnd they’re like,
1:19:321 hour, 19 minutes, 32 seconds”Did you listen to your rough mix?” And I was like, “No, I just started.” And they’re like, it’s a couple days in, you know, mixing. And they’re like, “Well,
1:19:421 hour, 19 minutes, 42 secondslisten to the rough and call us back.” I was like, “All right, put the rough in and listen to it.” I looked at the [ __ ] assistant. I said, “Pull
1:19:511 hour, 19 minutes, 51 secondseverything.” And he was like, “What?” He was like, “Zero the whole console. Pull everything down.” And then he pulls
1:20:001 hour, 20 minuteseverything down and then I call the band up. I go, “I understand.” And he was there like, “Okay, great.” They didn’t have to say anything. It was like, “I’ll
1:20:071 hour, 20 minutes, 7 secondssend you something in 20 minutes.” I just put the rough on. I was like,
1:20:111 hour, 20 minutes, 11 seconds”Okay.” I thought about what I was doing while we were doing it. Put it back up.
1:20:161 hour, 20 minutes, 16 secondsHalf an hour, 30, 40 minutes, whatever it was. I sent the new mix and they’re like, “Perfect. That’s exactly what it is.” Yeah.
1:20:211 hour, 20 minutes, 21 secondsAnd I tell kids to this day, you’re gonna learn how to be a better engineer by listening to the musicians. Yeah. Yeah, because a lot of times, man,
1:20:301 hour, 20 minutes, 30 secondsthey don’t want to hear everything. They don’t want to hear it perfect. They just want to hear it like it comes across to them with sculpting every sound and going
1:20:381 hour, 20 minutes, 38 secondslike you can hear David perfectly and you can hear [ __ ] Caesar perfectly and like the it was the perfect mix, but it wasn’t.
1:20:471 hour, 20 minutes, 47 secondsYeah. Yeah. No, it’s funny. In fact, I was talking to who who was telling me this story? Um Oh, Chuck Engley was telling me the story about Eddie, right? About working
1:20:551 hour, 20 minutes, 55 secondswith Eddie. And he said, you know, Eddie told this story about working with Dylan, right? And he said, you know, he mixed, you know, really worked hard on
1:21:031 hour, 21 minutes, 3 secondsthis mix and and Bob comes in, hits play on the 24 track, you know, and sits back and listens to it. Lists to about 60 seconds of it, hits stop and goes,
1:21:141 hour, 21 minutes, 14 secondsEddie, it’s all [ __ ] up. I can hear everything. Yeah. Yeah.
1:21:191 hour, 21 minutes, 19 secondsYou know, it’s like sometimes you just want the soup. Yeah.
1:21:221 hour, 21 minutes, 22 secondsYou know, you don’t want all the ingredients. That’s a hard lesson to learn.
1:21:251 hour, 21 minutes, 25 secondsIt is, man. It is, you know, and it’s like, okay, what’s right for this song? Yeah.
1:21:311 hour, 21 minutes, 31 secondsBecause ultimately, that’s what we’re chasing. We’re chasing the song.
1:21:341 hour, 21 minutes, 34 secondsYeah. Yeah. And I And I’m I’ve just I just recently same thing. I got sent a mix and Yeah. It sounds the artist was
1:21:431 hour, 21 minutes, 43 secondslike, “It [ __ ] sounds incredible.” He goes, “But it’s showing all the warts as well.” And he goes, “Can you,” He was like, “Whatever you’re doing, do 25%
1:21:541 hour, 21 minutes, 54 secondsless.” Yep. You know, and I’m like, “Okay.” It’s too good. It’s too clear.
1:21:591 hour, 21 minutes, 59 secondsAnd I was like, “I got it. I I know what you’re saying.” Yeah. I It took me 10 minutes. I sent it back. He goes, “Perfect.”
1:22:051 hour, 22 minutes, 5 secondsYeah. You know, because sometimes it’s not jazz. Yeah.
1:22:091 hour, 22 minutes, 9 secondsYou know, sometimes it’s not perfection that we’re looking for. Yeah. No, man. It’s true. It’s true.
1:22:151 hour, 22 minutes, 15 secondsI I Yeah. I come to that point, you know, again, just being in the time that I kind of came up in some of the people are just fantastic engineers, mixers,
1:22:271 hour, 22 minutes, 27 secondsand you know, and you sit there and you’re like, you learn from them, and you, you know, and it’s so crazy to watch one person do it one way and then
1:22:341 hour, 22 minutes, 34 secondsanother one do it a different way and get the same results and then get such different results at the same time, you know,
1:22:411 hour, 22 minutes, 41 secondsand and you kind of just kind of, you know, again, I feel so blessed that I learned from the people that made the records that I grew up on. You know,
1:22:501 hour, 22 minutes, 50 secondsthat I mean that to me is what really has made it worth it, man. It’s like being able to be around these people and just, you know, absorb some of that and
1:22:591 hour, 22 minutes, 59 secondsthink like, okay, you know what? I learned so much just from watching you,
1:23:031 hour, 23 minutes, 3 secondsyou know? I mean, you know, I talked about like I was a a second on a Phil Raone session. I didn’t learn [ __ ]
1:23:101 hour, 23 minutes, 10 secondstechnically speaking from watching Phil Raone because he wasn’t that technical really, you know,
1:23:161 hour, 23 minutes, 16 secondsbut man, watching the way he handled things, you know, um somebody erased a part of a take, you know, and Phil was
1:23:241 hour, 23 minutes, 24 secondslike, “Oh, no problem. Made everybody feel wonderful, you know, and it’s there’s something about like, oh, that’s the art right there. That’s the whole
1:23:321 hour, 23 minutes, 32 secondsthing.” You know, Peter Asher, another one, you know, just like people who really understand like I’m working with the artist. I’m working on the art. You know, it’s left brain, right brain.
1:23:441 hour, 23 minutes, 44 secondsYeah. You know,
1:23:441 hour, 23 minutes, 44 secondsI I I accidentally left uh track and record. So, when I was a tape hopping and assistant oops, you know, for this
1:23:521 hour, 23 minutes, 52 secondsengineer, I don’t remember the guy’s name,
1:23:551 hour, 23 minutes, 55 secondsbut like I was like I I you know, I [ __ ] was like, “Oh, fuck.” So, we were dropping in and uh doing an overdub and I had left the overhead in record.
1:24:061 hour, 24 minutes, 6 secondsOh.
1:24:061 hour, 24 minutes, 6 secondsSo, we were like half the chorus was like gone, you know, for the overhead.
1:24:121 hour, 24 minutes, 12 secondsSo, I I went to the the engineer and I said, “Hey, man, I [ __ ] up.” And he was like, “What do you mean you [ __ ] up?” I left the the overhead and record.
1:24:201 hour, 24 minutes, 20 secondsHe was like, “Yeah, it’s fine.” And I was like, “What do you mean?” He was like, “Dude, it’s all good. like don’t do it again, but it’s all good.
1:24:311 hour, 24 minutes, 31 secondsYeah.
1:24:311 hour, 24 minutes, 31 secondsAnd then I realized I was sitting there going like some people would have [ __ ] freaked the [ __ ] out. Yeah. You know. Yeah.
1:24:381 hour, 24 minutes, 38 secondsAnd this guy gave me a break.
1:24:401 hour, 24 minutes, 40 secondsI never did it again. I’ll tell you that. Of course. But you know,
1:24:441 hour, 24 minutes, 44 secondsyou beat yourself up worse than he would have.
1:24:461 hour, 24 minutes, 46 secondsYeah. And and I’ve been in a situation now where I’ve been, you know, again,
1:24:501 hour, 24 minutes, 50 secondsSunset Sound or Capital or whatever where someone’s [ __ ] up or someone’s and I I the same grace I said it’s all good, man.
1:24:581 hour, 24 minutes, 58 secondsYeah. And you know, ultimately nobody’s going to hear it. You know, in in the overall scope of things, it’s like, you know, I laugh about that, man.
1:25:081 hour, 25 minutes, 8 secondsI was, in fact, I was just doing a session um with one of my students last weekend and he was agonizing over the
1:25:151 hour, 25 minutes, 15 secondsdrums and you know, I was like, and it I I understood it because, you know, and I was trying to help him because the challenge there had been that the guy
1:25:221 hour, 25 minutes, 22 secondsplayed uh an electric and acoustic combination, right? Like he had an electronic kick and toms and everything else was, you know, live snare, live overheads. It’s like, see, you know,
1:25:331 hour, 25 minutes, 33 secondshe’s trying to struggle to get it all to sound like it’s in the same room, right? Yeah. And I said, ‘Yeah, you know, okay,
1:25:381 hour, 25 minutes, 38 secondswe’ll get there. And, you know, I gave him some guidance on that. And then I said to him, you know, just remember one thing, man. And I quoted that famous line. I said, ‘N nobody ever goes home humming the snare.
1:25:481 hour, 25 minutes, 48 secondsYeah. You know, I was like, yeah. He was like,
1:25:521 hour, 25 minutes, 52 secondsyou know, you’re right, man. I’m agonizing over this thing. And ultimately, it’s like,
1:25:561 hour, 25 minutes, 56 secondswhat about what about the song? You know, don’t be examining every blade of grass, you know? Yeah. Zoom out and look at the whole map.
1:26:051 hour, 26 minutes, 5 secondsYeah. You know, it’s important. And and again that’s that’s a the a big big important lesson people learn have to learn now too. It’s like
1:26:131 hour, 26 minutes, 13 secondsyou know we we we want to feel like every little detail is important. want to feel like every little nuance is important, but like um you know, it’s not, you know,
1:26:251 hour, 26 minutes, 25 secondsyou know, I always go back to um when I was really really young, there was uh Dick Clark, I think it was, right? And
1:26:331 hour, 26 minutes, 33 secondshe used to play a song for people who were not musicians at all, and they’d say, “It’s got a good beat. It’s easy to dance to. I’ll give it an 85.” Yeah.
1:26:411 hour, 26 minutes, 41 secondsRight. You know, it’s like ultimately they’re not going to hear all that stuff. They’re not going to pay attention to all this stuff. Do you like the song? Yeah. Yeah.
1:26:501 hour, 26 minutes, 50 secondsYou know. Yeah.
1:26:501 hour, 26 minutes, 50 secondsAnd if you like the song, you don’t know why. And if you don’t like the song, you don’t know why, you know. So, the best thing we can do, it’s like I the way I
1:26:581 hour, 26 minutes, 58 secondsexplained it to one of my students was I said, you know, look, it’s like building a house, right? We want to do the best we can, you know,
1:27:061 hour, 27 minutes, 6 secondslike even at the wood butcher stage, we want to make sure we frame it right so that the sheetrock goes on, right? so that people don’t walk in later on and
1:27:141 hour, 27 minutes, 14 secondsgo, I don’t know what I don’t like, but you know, right? Something’s off.
1:27:171 hour, 27 minutes, 17 secondsBut ultimately, it’s like, you know, you can spend all that time on it and you can spend a lot of time on the finished carpentry and everything else, but you know,
1:27:251 hour, 27 minutes, 25 secondsit’s all going to be one thing that’s going to strike somebody at the end of the day and they’re not going to see all those moving parts. They don’t see all the nails. Yeah.
1:27:331 hour, 27 minutes, 33 secondsYeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
1:27:361 hour, 27 minutes, 36 secondsWell, let me conclude with the question that I ask almost everybody here, which is, what do you tell 15year-old you
1:27:431 hour, 27 minutes, 43 secondscoming up in the industry now in this day and age?
1:27:461 hour, 27 minutes, 46 seconds[ __ ]
1:27:471 hour, 27 minutes, 47 secondsOh man, I never thought of it that like like that. Um,
1:27:531 hour, 27 minutes, 53 secondswell, I think I would have so said myself, well, yeah, I actually do know what I would have told myself. Enjoy it more.
1:28:021 hour, 28 minutes, 2 secondsBig one. Yeah. Yeah.
1:28:051 hour, 28 minutes, 5 secondsYeah. And and you know, and of course yourself will not listen to you because Yeah.
1:28:101 hour, 28 minutes, 10 secondsYeah. We’re so, you know, we’re so focused on that that goal that we think is where we’re going. Yeah.
1:28:171 hour, 28 minutes, 17 secondsYou know, and it’s not where we’re going. It’s ultimately nowhere near where we’re going to end up. Now, I’ve enjoyed a lot of the records I’ve made,
1:28:251 hour, 28 minutes, 25 secondsbut there were definitely moments where I thought, well, I was doing surgery, like heart, open heart surgery,
1:28:321 hour, 28 minutes, 32 secondsthat I agonizing, right?
1:28:341 hour, 28 minutes, 34 secondsAnd I stressed myself out more than I needed to. I probably took a couple years off my own life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:28:401 hour, 28 minutes, 40 secondsBut I would have I would definitely have said, “Slow down. You’re moving too fast. Enjoy yourself.” You know? Yeah.
1:28:481 hour, 28 minutes, 48 secondsThat would be good advice, man.
1:28:531 hour, 28 minutes, 53 secondsRobert Coransson, thank you for being my guest. Pleasure. Thank you.
1:29:011 hour, 29 minutes, 1 secondHey, I’m Daniel Keller. Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button and join us each week for Insights and Sound.