Insights In Sound 203 – Mind The Gap: Creativity & Conflict with Multigenerational Teams S21 E3

Welcome to Insights and Sound, where we talk to the people behind the scenes, behind the technology, and behind the
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music. People you may not know, but you should. [music] And please check out
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insightsandsound.com for a full list of our podcasts and YouTube series. Insights and Sound is made possible with
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the support of our friends [music] Obs, Roland, Aea, Ribbon Mics, Sessionwire,
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GC Pro, Customhouse. Hey everybody, welcome to our last
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session of the first day of NAM and Tech Tracks Lagoon. Yay. [screaming]
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Uh, mind the gap. Creativity and conflict with the multi-generational teams in
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music. As technology has evolved, so has the creative process. Today’s generation
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has a much different perspective and approach to making music than that of their parents.
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In this panel, we look at what has changed, what remains the same, and how different generations can learn from
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each other. Please welcome chair of AESLA and host of the Insights in Sound
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podcast, Daniel Keller. [cheering] [applause]
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Thank you all for being here. And I’m going to introduce my panel
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beginning at the far end. Alec Duce,
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Mr. Rick Allen, the illustrious Susie Shin.
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Hello. The equally illustrious Michael Bangor.
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[applause] and the even more illustrious and and slightly hobbled Julie Tina. [cheering]
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We are all from very very different and diverse backgrounds.
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Um I think one of the interesting things here is that none of us are stereotypical for our generation or what
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we do. Um, I want to get a little bit of background on each of us just so that we sort of
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see where we’re coming from here. Um, Alec, you actually are more of a an
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[clears throat] organic kind of producer musician than most people of your
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generation, I would say. Right. Yes and no. [laughter] Well, fine. Be that way.
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I do a lot of different things, which makes it fun. personally do a lot of synth oriented music, but I like working
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with bands and artists and orchestras. I like both and blending both because
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sometimes you can make things not sound like they’re supposed to, which we love. Yes, indeed. Indeed. And
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Rick is a well-known sound designer and also works with a lot of younger people
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because he teaches at the Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences.
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And then it’s one thing that uh for me I’m not on the musical side of this group uh quite as much because I record
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sound effects and do sound design for TV, movies and video games. And so what
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I find is I am blessed in the fact that from my career perspective, I get to be
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I get to be the young little kid because even though I’m an old fart, I go out and I record explosions and I smash
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glass windows for sound effects recording and things like that. And then on top of that, another great thing is
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being a part-time instructor at the conservatory at Grass, uh, I’m working with people that are super passionate
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about learning the the the business and entering the business. So, I get to see that enthusiasm, which I keeps me
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fighting any urge I have to become a commercial. You’re already a commercial. That’s
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another story. Susie is um I was just saying to someone earlier uh I call her
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an old soul because she really she has really a very traditional approach to
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music production. Uh you know not not really making beats and stuff like that but really working with a lot of um what
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I would call the organic process. Is that fair saying? Yeah very fair. I I think like you know
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the generation like the producer definition has changed. It could be beat maker. It could be executive producer.
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[clears throat] It could be band producer. Um producer producer songwriter producer a producer engineer
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and go on. But yeah, I I breaking out of that. That’s what I thought a producer was when I was growing up was a beat
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maker and like opening the doors and seeing a lot more than that. I don’t know where I’m going.
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I like that. I like that whole idea of producer producer. That’s kind of
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interesting. Interesting. Yeah. And Michael, you and I have known each
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other a very, very long time. Um, and your production process has really
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evolved over the years as well, I would say. Yeah. Yeah, it has. Uh, I used to, uh,
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work on records that would take upwards of a year [laughter]
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easily. Yeah. And now I just work exclusively remotely. and uh try and address aspects
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of the production process that most other people don’t really want to deal with because there’s a lot of heavy
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lifting about it like pre-production. Yeah, we’re going to talk about pre-production in a moment. Um Julie,
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you’ve been all over the map. Um, you you’re now a you’re you’re now actually a company owner, which puts you in a
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completely different perspective, but I know you’ve been an artist, you’ve been in marketing, you’ve really kind of done
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a little bit of everything. Uh, Jack, master of none.
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That’s I think that applies to a lot of us in this room. Um, you know, because music is hard. Yeah. And and you kind of
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go where the wind thinks or where the bills get paid. for a while. Um, but
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suddenly in into manufacturing right now, uh, there’s a lot of hurdles and
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and yet it’s probably the most rewarding game that I’ve ever had. It’s interesting.
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So, in terms of approaching things, you know, one of the things that I really
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find fascinating here is that each of us has managed somehow to integrate
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into each other’s environments. you know, um Rick and I both work with a lot of
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younger people. I teach as well. Uh I teach advanced audio recording at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Um and
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so, you know, for us, we I think I think it’s fair to say that I learn as much as
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I teach, if not more so, you know, and I think I [snorts] I mean, maybe that’s
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just a general statement. I think for each of us, every time we work with an artist, we’re really learning something
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new all the time, are we not? I I almost think that the whole curiosity factor in our business is what
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drives us. And I think that when we stop becoming curious, you dry up. I mean,
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the fact that we live in a in an era where exponentially this technology is
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changing and advancing incredibly quickly. And so in order to [snorts]
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keep up with it, we we no matter what age you are, whether you’re just starting out or whether you been doing
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this forever, we have to keep learning. And I I you brought up the fact that we
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learn from our students. I think it’s amazing to me. As much as I teach and spread my prior knowledge, every day I
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teach, I learn something from one of the students. And if that ever stops, I’ll be worried.
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you know, you just mentioned technology and I think that’s a really interesting point right there and and Michael, I
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know you will definitely relate to this. The fact that when when we started
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working with artists and musicians, we were working on tape. We were working in
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a whole different process that was much more linear and much more in certain ways drawn out. You know, the whole idea
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of waiting for the tape to rewind and stuff like that. I think you know
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the idea of having a limited number of tracks, the idea of um and and this is
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something that that I know that you and I have talked about before. idea of the limits of technology. You know, we
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really I think to a certain extent we are now spoiled for choice to the point
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where we have so much so many riches in that sense that that
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we really almost don’t have to be inspired and struggle as much. And I
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think sometimes that that tends to make the artist a little bit lazy because they don’t bring their agame because we
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I can’t tell them like you’ve only got one track to do your vocal, you know. Yeah. Well, I mean that that that’s kind
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of like I don’t know which came first, the chicken or the eggs. I I started noticing when artists would come in,
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they were kind of like, “Oh, that’s good enough.” You know, we’d record something and I’d be kind of like, “I don’t think
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we quite nailed it.” They’d be like, “I think that’s good.” Can’t we boo that? [laughter]
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How many times have we sampled that again? That I don’t want to play it again kind of thing. It’s like, wait, this is your
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record. We really don’t want to play it again. It’s like, will you play it right one time? You won’t have to play it
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again. People will be listening to it, you know, in through time immemorial. Would you not prefer that, you know? But
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I mean, we, you know, we we we kind of had to, as you’re saying, I guess,
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struggle a little bit to get sounds and things like that. If you had an idea, you actually had to sit there and like,
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you know, because you didn’t have a plugin that you could go to. I I think the automated process, just having a
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plugin, being able to move a couple do a couple of mouse clicks and have the sound that you want is wonderful. It’s
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absolutely phenomenal. But it, you know, it it does take a certain amount of the
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effort out of it and the intentionality which the recall part is great.
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I agree. It’s it’s unparallel, you know, it’s it’s wonderful. But there
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was a certain intention that an intentional aspect of getting sounds where you actually had to labor over
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stuff and like what? What is this going to do? like what kind of emotional impact is this going to
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have on people when they hear it because that was all that’s always what drove me in terms of get in terms of getting
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sounds and things like that. You know, it’s not just well an API 558 is going
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to sound good and this so I’m going to just slap it on. You know, what’s the API 558 actually doing? How does it
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reflect the emotional resonance of what it is that you’re trying to communicate? And I mean that may sound a little bit
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high brow, even silly in some way, but also like when you think of music as being an I guess a delivery system of
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emotions, it becomes a whole different thing. It’s like yes, you’re trying to express something and even the sounds if
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they line up with that expression, everything starts to resonate have much
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more power. Well, and I think that’s, you know, anybody who knows me knows I I say this
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all the time. It’s not about the gear, you know, and there is so much emphasis,
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especially now on the idea of, you know, I have to use this compressor because it
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was used on this track or I, you know, how do I do this? How do I get the the
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John Bonum drum sound or something like that, you know, and it’s like they already did that, you know, and
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yeah, plus which one? Well, there’s that, too, you know, but but point being, you know, it’s like we’re not after that. We’re after
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capturing lightning in a bottle. We’re after capturing an emotion and making a
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statement in that sense. And I think that’s something that really I think
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that’s important. And I think it transcends generations. And the technology that has come along
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has allowed us to do. It’s kind of a two-edged sword. One of the things I love about all plugins is the fact that
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we can try and experiment with different things, but you can also fall into a laziness of presets and just throw stuff
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in. who’s who was what somebody was quoted as saying, you know, after the third plugin on that channel, you know,
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you’re screwing things up kind of thing. And that’s it’s one of those things where yes, you know, we used to record
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uphill seven miles every day to school back. [laughter] But but but in the old days, if we
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wanted to add a flanging effect, we had to lay those tracks onto an onto a a
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two-track, then play it back and literally hold the flange a little bit. I mean, it was a commitment of time and
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energy. So you almost had to go, do we really want this effect there? How important is it? And you think about it.
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Whereas now the negative part of having all those plugins to me is we can do we can just throw it out there. The
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positive side is we can try different things very quickly. Yeah, it’s wonderful like that. But, you
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know, it also brings to mind the idea that perhaps having all these choices is
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also going to make people think even far further outside of the process of recording entirely and consider the
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material that they’re doing or the performance more things like that. kind of maybe not even see the equipment as a
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constraint of any kind and just kind of move outside of that mindset entirely because ultimately it’s going to have to
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come back to whether the whether the music that’s being made the audio experience is something that moves
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people and can get that emotional experience across well you know and and then there’s a
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flip side of that which um I call paralysis of analysis which is basically
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where you know I’ll spend or I’ll see people spending I try not to do this but
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of course I never do this but uh I see us you know spending literally like you know 20 25 minutes trying different
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reverbs or how many snares can I try on this before you know snare samples before I find exactly the right one and
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you get so caught up in being in the weeds that you don’t have that 30,000
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foot view of it’s all about the song and I think that’s something that we
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also get caught up in because we have too many options. Well, curious if you don’t mind me
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asking Michael Susie, like when you produce an artist, like in your head, are you already hearing what you think
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that that should sound like or do you at that moment let them go and then and then kind of figure out where it’s
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supposed to go? If I’m if I it depends on like if I’m writing with an artist, that’s a very different hat I’m wearing that day. And
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I it could be like, oh, I want them to sound like this, whatever, or let’s see what they bring in. But if it’s in terms of production generally, like I I love
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pre-pro. I love a band getting into a room and like playing the songs a 100 million times and sitting in there with
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them. And then like I I have I have a semi clear idea and I’m down to go and
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venture wherever once we get in there and do it. about like how we’re going to approach the drums, how we’re going to
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approach the guitars, what guitars we’re going to reach for, what mics we’re going to reach for, and then like really
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kind of lean on like the performance and like the emotion. Uh like that that’s
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like for me like all we keep all saying this, like that’s all I’m trying to do is capture that emotion of like that
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bass part playing and like does it sound sad and does it break your heart if that’s what you’re going for. Um, but
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[laughter] yeah, that that’s where I where I stand. I don’t know. All your recordings make me sad.
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[laughter] So,
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yeah. I mean, as far as as far as producing the record, I always have had
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to have an idea of what it was going to sound like. Um, with that said, there’s
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always going to be like you got to turn in a dime type stuff that happens. And be ready to be surprised. Yeah,
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exactly. Because you can come into a recording situation with an abstract idea of what something’s going to
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deliver sonically and you may have all the tools laid out, all like every single signal path figured out and then
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something’s going to happen that you weren’t expecting and all of a sudden everything’s going to change, you know? But by and large, I would just
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kind of come in there with a with a very singular vision of what it was going to sound like and just make every
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instrument than every other instrument. So they were kind of coexisting and
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finding each other at the same time. Well, there’s something there’s something there’s a concept called the beginner’s mind, which I’ve always found
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very very useful when working with an artist. And it’s basically being able to
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approach something as if you’ve never done it before, as if it’s you’re doing it for the first time. And really in a
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certain way, you get caught up in something like, you know, maybe not having any idea or pretending you don’t
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have any idea of, you know, convincing yourself. In other words, that you don’t have any idea even though you’ve done a
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lot of pre-production because in a way that gives you the chance to have these happy accidents.
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I mean, I kind of like that thought, you know, it’s not always possible to do.
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And especially because if you’re in that position of working with an artist and and I know we’ve all been in that
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position where they’re basically looking to you and they’re like, “Okay, what do you want me to do?” you know, and
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they’re looking to you to guide the process, you know, and so
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is there not this balance in a way of like um I call it, you know, the being
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being the bro but being a dad at the same time. You know, it’s it’s kind of
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like you want me to guide you, but I also want you to
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come up with the inspiration yourself and guide yourself through this a little bit, right? I mean, one of the things you’re talking about,
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Daniel, that I think has changed quite a bit and I’m excited about there’s a little bit of a shift in the other
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direction because of technology, which is in the old days, um, you’d work there
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would be a synergy because you’d be live in the studio, the artists would be all together and you never know, the bass
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player may come up with a line that never would have happened. And then we went through an era where all of us started working on DAWs and started
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working in isolation where we were we didn’t have the chance to interact with
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people and I’m and that I thought we lost some of that spontaneity there u and that that was a generational thing
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at a time but I think we’re coming into the technology of um things like audio
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movers and session wire and things like that are giving us the opportunity to share and be participating even though
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we’re not in the same location. And I think that is for from a musicality standpoint, I think that’s going to
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really continue to open up and and make our opportunity to do these things even
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better. Well, how is that for you? you two younger people in this in this
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group, you know, because in a sense you came up without having gone through that
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same technological process that we did and you know now you’re sort of working
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your way backwards in a way I think. Is isn’t that is that fair to say? I think so. Like I I was on my first
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recordings were Garage Band on an iMac using the iMac my god microphone. My first band was a garage
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band. Yeah, but I thought that’s like how you made me I didn’t have any musical family members or anyone like just teaching me
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anything. I there wasn’t there wasn’t YouTube yet, guys. Um so I I didn’t like to learn and be like what’s why do I
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need an interface? Like why do I need this? Why I thought a band I thought a band did like the vocals were like one
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take through and you sang the whole thing and like doubling and tripling wasn’t wasn’t in existence. So, it’s
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it’s defin it’s a learning curve and it’s but it’s inspiring at the same time. Um, I don’t know. What do you
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think? Yeah. No, I agree. And I I do see a lot of people wanting the collaborations.
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People are missing that. Even young other younger people that I work with. Do you think they know they’re missing the
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They don’t know that they’re missing it. They’re just like, “This seems like it would be a really good idea to do it all together like we do in rehearsal.” Wow.
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It’s like, “Yeah, no. Let’s that’s that’s the better way to do it. Let’s try that.” It was lonely. I I didn’t have garage
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bands grow. I had one garage band and I fired the drummer cuz he could not sound [laughter]
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like Michael knows all about drummers. Uh, but it’s it was a very lonely
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process and and I dreamed of what I think you guys grew up, you know, with with bands and whatnot and and it’s it’s
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magical to get back to it and it’s hard to be like, “Hey, you guys need to go get a PA system in a rehearsal room and
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buy guitars and you need to buy amps and you need to get your drum set and you need to like all meet up in downtown LA four days a week and play.”
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Especially record what you’re playing and record what you’re playing. Record what you’re playing so you hear what you sound like.
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Yeah. Yeah. Because I hear I’ve worked with drummers that have never recorded before and they play like they’re playing live, which is very different
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than when you’re playing into my first studio. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, that that’s And there too, I think the technology has
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changed to the point where it gives us more of an idea. I mean, I I remember recording rehearsal space stuff. And for
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the most part, you still couldn’t really make out what everybody was playing because you had basically a, you know, a boom box over in the corner recording.
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But to be able to multitrack now and really be able to look at each other and say, “Is that what you’re playing
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there?” You know, that that happens so often. And I think that’s such a an enlightening experience, isn’t it?
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I mean, to me, you know, the idea of actually breaking that now, that’s pre-production. Yes.
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Right. And that’s something that um I think has kind of fallen by the wayside a little bit, but uh I can’t speak
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highly enough about the importance of it and the value of it. [clears throat] I made this band young younger girls in
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their early 20s get a rehearsal room and do pre-pro for like two months.
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They were so pissed at me. Called me and was like, I don’t understand why we need to do this. this
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is really and then like three months later they were so happy and you know but it’s it’s interesting
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but do you think that that’s because of the fact that multitracks are so easily accessible? Yeah, they’re just going
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from room to room, session to session, writing song, song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song song build like you know
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part by part that’s what they that’s what their normal was what they grew up on but but that’s the thing is if they’re
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building it part by part they’re building it in a vacuum whereas I think you know the idea of
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being able to do that in a room together where you know I mean I’m a bass player
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I value the idea of playing with a really great drummer because we’ll come
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up with things we’ll be working off of each other and I’ll be like, “Okay, the next time that part comes around, we’re
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going to, you know, lean into it and do something.” And that I think is something that you’re not going to get
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if if I’m playing to a beat or a loop or if I’m playing to something that you
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already recorded. I’m not going to lock in like that. And I think that’s that’s
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to to me that’s something that I I I’m glad to see coming back. I’m glad to hear that you guys are saying that this
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is something that is enjoying a bit of a resurgence, you know, that that’s kind of why we do
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this, right? So, do you
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have the experience of, let’s say, working with a solo artist and trying to figure out what to put on top of the
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barebones idea? Anybody go for it? It depends
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[clears throat] on the project. There’s an artist that I work with a lot. Both he writes for my material, but I also
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help write for his material. I’m not a songwriter and I don’t know how I got roped into writing for pop music because that is not my wheelhouse at all
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whatsoever. But it’s more we found that working together in a room, even if I’m not
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actually writing anything, what is then written helps because I’m like that that’s dog [ __ ] Like we should not be
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writing that. [laughter] People are really liking collaboration.
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But on top of that of feedbacking while we’re working, they’ll come up with ideas that I would have never thought of
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because we’re in completely different genres and I’m bouncing ideas like, “Oh, we could do this thing from this.” Like,
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I would have never thought of that either. And coming up with something from scratch can be a lot of fun where
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there’s just no expectation. Let’s just see what happens. I’ve been doing that a lot recently of just let’s meet up in a
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room, not know what genre we’re going to be working on, and just kind of see what happens. I think that goes back to what
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I was talking about about basically approaching things with this beginner’s mind you know and and the idea of
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collaboration is something that you know I I like I said originally you
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know when when when I came up with bands it was like you know let whoever you got
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together in the band there was a certain chemistry there that just naturally started happening and it wasn’t
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something that was really pre-planned I I mean, it’s like, you know, you start working with somebody and you start
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figuring out their quirks and their, you know, the way that this person plays and how you play off of it. And a lot of
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times it ends up being a train wreck, you know. I mean, I’ve I’ve had plenty of, you know, my share of of, you know,
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musically speaking, kissing toads, you know, but I think it ultimately it does lead
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to more inspiration if you’re able to try that. you’re able to try these different things and you know I I like
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to see more of that. You know, it’s good practice. It is. It is. And you know, um it’s
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funny because I remember speaking with um um the
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trying to remember uh what what the the entirety of the conversation was, but uh the um the bass player from a band was
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talking to me about how each of them had done their own solo albums and how everybody was worried that uh the band’s
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breaking up because of that. And they’re like, “No, man. Because when we’re doing a solo album and I’m I’m bringing
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different people in, all of a sudden I’m getting a completely different vibe and I’m getting a completely idea. And then
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I come back to my band and I’m charged because I’ve tried something different
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that we haven’t fallen into these patterns like we do with our own band. It’s like, you know, kind of like a
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marriage, you know, and sometimes you have to shake things up, but I’m not making it. [laughter] No, I’m not going
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there. I’m not going there, you know, especially today’s my wedding anniversary and my wife’s not here, so I
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was definitely not going there. But but uh I think it it it’s important to shake
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stuff up and try different things, you know. So, so for you guys working on
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different stuff now, um, Michael, I know that you have really kind of changed your your direction a whole lot now and
27:38
you’re working with artists on a remote basis a lot of times and uh, definitely
27:43
working with them a lot more in pre-production. How is that different now as opposed to the the life you used
27:51
to lead? [laughter] No, I mean away from the glitz and glamour.
27:58
The glamour. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Well, the bright lights. Yeah. I mean, before we used to have
28:04
people throwing like hundreds of thousands, in some cases millions of dollars at you to like make a record.
28:10
That kind of stuff isn’t happening anymore. It’s not going to happen again, you know. I mean, I enjoyed that very
28:17
much because there was a tremendous um respect for the artistry of everyone
28:24
that was involved in the creative side of things from the uh corporation. They
28:29
knew well enough when it was time to get out of the way and not interfere. Um,
28:36
and that was I mean that that’s really the kind of equation that you want. people giving you money to make
28:42
recordings and leaving you the [ __ ] alone to do what you want to do, you know? But that stopped happening and it
28:50
became less there became less impetus for me to want to make records anymore
28:56
to produce records because if I if I can’t if I’m not going to be allowed to
29:01
be an artist and instead I become like a functionary in someone’s record because in a lot of cases being a record
29:08
producer for some people is kind of like being a glorified engineer. Well, guess what? I’m not that great of an engineer.
29:13
I can produce the [ __ ] out of a record, but I’m not going to pretend that I can engineer better than some of the great
29:18
engineers that I’ve worked with. So, that’s nonsense. And I’m not going to try and make myself an engineer either.
29:24
So, I started looking at all the elements in music production that don’t
29:29
that seem to be lacking. One of which is pre-production. And obviously, we’ve been talking about that a lot, but it’s
29:35
so important. Yet, most of the artists that I was encountering had no idea what
29:41
it was. They also didn’t understand what development was to actually have people sit there and talk to you about what it
29:48
is that you’re doing or being able to look at what your recording or what your music what your musical output is and
29:55
seeing where you’re weak, where your strengths are, how to be able to equalize everything and to be able to
30:01
like stimulate the growth in the right way instead of saying, “Well, you should sound more like this person or more like
30:06
that person,” which is pretty much how modern day record labels treat artists.
30:12
to the extent where they’re basically trying to chase something that’s already been successful and trying to stamp that
30:18
on onto artists. So it becomes like a formula instead of being an artist who
30:23
just evolves organically. I mean, I think it’s really essential to help
30:29
artists find their way instead of letting instead of letting them kind of like flounder and then forcing them into
30:36
these molds. A lot of them can’t possibly um they can’t meet those kinds
30:42
of expectations anyway. I mean, not everyone is going to be a successful pop artist. They’re still going to have
30:49
they’re still going to be great in their own way, though. But the way the music the the way the record labels are set up
30:55
now, the majors in particular, that can’t exist. So there has to be there have to be other channels for them. I
31:02
just felt that there just there needed to be alternatives for people who aren’t able to have access to really good
31:11
production oversight and also to be able to be able to have people around them
31:16
that would help stimulate their growth and see where their potential lies. And that’s why I just I started working
31:23
remotely and started focusing more on specific elements of the production process rather than treating it as like
31:30
a one-sizefits-all approach, which is how I did it before. Well, you know, you you you mentioned
31:36
something that we we talked about a little bit earlier that I think is really um it has changed a lot, which is
31:43
the idea of trying to find something new and trying to find the actual essence of
31:49
the artist. You know, it’s it’s the difference between how do I versus what
31:55
if I, right? The the difference of how do I make something that sounds like
32:01
something that’s already out there as opposed to what if I try and get your
32:07
what if I try and discover who you are as an artist? Well, yeah. I mean, you got to basically put a wrench in people’s brains at that
32:14
point. You know, you think you’re going this way, you’re actually going that way. you think you’re this, you’re actually that, you know, like and and
32:21
basically pose the question to them like who do you think who are you? What are you? What is it that you’re
32:27
trying to say? What’s your intention? Why should I want to listen to you? What’s what’s special about you?
32:33
Why should you want to listen to you? What you know what do you have to say that’s so important? You know, what kind
32:39
of pain are you holding on to that needs to come out? You know, what is it? You know, I mean, these are all rhetorical
32:44
questions, too. I mean, I’m not going to expect someone’s going to like come with like an answer to each one of them, but
32:50
it’s almost like a Zen Quan where you’re kind of like sitting there going like, you know, I can’t feel my mind or
32:56
something like that, you know, like it it’s it’s just that kind of thing. There has to be like a visceral kind of
33:03
internalized personalized response and that’s where uniqueness comes from. It’s not like go home and listen to this
33:09
record and come back and play that for me, you know, or see how that influences you. It’s it’s like it’s something much
33:15
deeper, you know, it’s freeing a person so that they can find their own creative art their own creative expression
33:21
artistically. Well, and that’s where, you know, and we’ve we’ve talked about this many many
33:27
times, the idea that the producer becomes partly a psychologist and a psychiatrist
33:33
because we’re looking to dig into where did that come from? You know, like when
33:39
when um when I’m working with a singer, I’m not going to just tell them to go in the booth and sing it. I’m going to talk
33:45
start talking to him about so tell me about, you know, tell me about where the song comes from. You know, where did you
33:51
know what were the circumstances that you wrote this under? What you know, I mean, you know, because a lot of a lot
33:57
of songwriters are channeling some kind of trauma or some kind of, you know,
34:04
whatever it is. And if you can get that out of them and you can start
34:10
understanding where the song comes from, then maybe you can inspire them to give you a genuine earthshaking performance.
34:19
[snorts] Look, you know, music is it’s a thing. It’s like it it’s basically a
34:25
show. You know, what you fill it up with is devotion. It doesn’t matter what the
34:31
melody is. It doesn’t matter what the what the lyrics are. I mean, those are all superficial. You know, I don’t like if someone’s a great lyricist, fine. If
34:38
they’re a great songwriter, fine. It’s how well they’re able to channel their emotional expression into their music
34:44
and create a resonance inside because that is what matters most. That’s what
34:50
touches people because they resonate with that. That’s the sensation that you get when you listen to a piece of music
34:57
and go, “Oh, felt something.” You know, like that’s what’s supposed to happen.
35:03
they are conveying their their resonance into you. They’re sharing that it, you
35:09
know, it’s pretty much that simple. And it’s also that hard because it takes people a lot, especially if they’re if
35:16
they’re capable. I mean, if they’re not capable, it’s never going to it’s never going to work. And you might write some
35:21
really great songs with great melodies, but it’s still not going to really say anything. I mean unfortunately that’s
35:27
one reason why music as a medium has become a little has become less sticky
35:32
over time because of the way people you know composed music now that there’s less there’s less of an investedness in
35:40
them. I mean, I can’t speak to the way you guys work because I think that you do something completely different,
35:47
[snorts] you know, but like I’m actually curious on how much of that is what inspires you or which projects
35:52
you pick and who you decide to work with and how much at the time it’s like, okay, yeah, we got to that pinnacle that
35:58
I I was envisioning in my mind or it’s just like, oh, whoa, this animal kind of took on its whole, you know,
36:04
manifestation. Well, this is why 2026 is a lot different than 1996,
36:10
you know? Like I I don’t pick projects anymore. I don’t do that. Like I to me that’s [ __ ] Like I’m not No, I I it
36:17
it would it was appropriate back when I was doing records where people were paying me like massive sums of money and
36:23
I had to stay on a project for like months, you know, sometimes years, you know, to to get it exactly perfectly
36:30
nailed. You know, if you’re not going to be in love with something that you’re working on, when you’re going to put
36:36
that much effort into it and invest yourself in it like that, you should not do it at all. Now, it’s a different
36:42
story. I mean, I’ll go so far as to say I I’ll work on people’s music, but I don’t even like what they do.
36:47
It doesn’t No, it’s true. It doesn’t It doesn’t matter to me because my function, my
36:53
role has changed completely. My I don’t think I was saying this to
36:59
anyone here. No, [laughter] there’s a there’s a movie called All That Jazz with Roy Shider. He plays Bob
37:06
Fy. You know, some people know who he is. Uh and he’s
37:12
what he worked with him. I’ve worked on that movie. Oh, you worked on movies. Oh my god.
37:17
Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, like he’s he’s having an affair with like one of the dancers, you know, who’s who’s not very good and
37:24
she’s like all broken up about the fact that she sucks and he says, “I can’t make you a great dancer. I can make you
37:30
a better dance. And to me, that like sums up the work that I do right now. I don’t I I don’t have to fall in love
37:37
with work that I’m doing anymore. What I have to do is figure out a way to help
37:42
people who are making music that honestly isn’t that great better. Well, is that a is that a do you feel
37:50
that that’s a a function of the times? I mean, is it really that music has become more derivative now or are there still
37:57
great artists? Make music now. That’s right. That’s That’s true. But are there still inspired great artists? Are you finding
38:03
inspired great artists? Yeah. I think you can you can f I look for things that I love and artists that
38:10
I love. And it’s like if you’re listen Okay, you’re listening to demos. Okay. Does it sound just like bleachers? Do they really love Traveled R? Is it a
38:15
copy? Is it someone who got lucky in their bedroom on TikTok? And like that’s why it’s on the major label. Like that’s
38:21
a lot of questions like and I I ask and ponder what I’m looking to take
38:26
something on. Am I working on everything that I love?
38:32
I do love everything that I work on, but I think in 2026,
38:38
like I I don’t think I think there are times why I might not be making working on music if I if it was not always
38:45
something that I was extremely passionate about. That’s a fair point. Yeah. That’s just a a strange reality. So, I
38:52
just like I want I want to be making music in any in any capacity sometime. So maybe it’s like, all right, I see
38:58
like a little bit of vision or I or I see like there’s something here. Can can I make it what you said better? Um, is
39:07
there can I can I dig can I dig deep? Um, I don’t know because because I think
39:13
it’s rare. I again we just said this, but there’s like there’s an overwhelming amount of music. I could be in a new
39:19
session with a new artist every day for the next 30 years. So I don’t know. I
39:25
don’t know. and and will we really I mean that that’s the thing is because so much of music has become commodified
39:33
and really how many inspired artists are there now that we’re finding
39:40
that we that I mean is we’re not going to find the next Beatles you know we could
39:45
we could but and that’s the question is you know how do you know there’s so many talented people
39:51
there really there’s no fewer talented people in the world than there were from the times of like great posers, the
39:57
Beatles, anyone else. I mean to actually for anyone to make a statement like that be absurd.
40:03
I mean it didn’t just it’s not like they’ve died out or done so and that’s my question is how how we how
40:09
do we know it’s up to people who are in a this is my it’s up to people who are in a
40:15
position of a not authority I guess creative authority to be able to who are
40:21
able to mentor artists to be able to help bring that out. You know, this is one reason why I’m doing what I’m doing
40:27
because I’m trying to help people find themselves to get to a point where they can actually where they can make stuff
40:33
where they can make expressive music that’s compelling that that will affect other people emotionally.
40:42
Works for me. Good. Do we have since we have 10 minutes
40:49
left? I want to open it to any questions, Q&A, things like that. U
40:56
anybody want to step up? You can shout. You can you can come up and have a
41:01
microphone or whatever you like. Okay. Hi. Um I’m a sound designer going into like I’m about to graduate and go
41:08
into FLO. Fingers crossed. Um, Rick, I was wondering from you, you know, the
41:14
panel ended up being a lot about authenticity and connection and collaboration. Um, but as someone who’s
41:20
done SAI, it can be a very lonely and solitary lonely. [laughter] Yeah. I mean, you
41:27
spend six hours in a room by yourself, believe it or not.
41:32
Believe it or not, actually, you can actually become almost a performer a little bit. um when I have other people
41:39
around me and we’re doing a work, I I still even as individual um and singular
41:45
as sound design is, I love an audience. I’m I’m a ham when it comes to that. So when I go out and recording explosions,
41:53
if I have a crew with me, I’m performing. I mean, it’s like, let’s make this fun. And that actually ends up
41:59
with some great sounds. or um embarrassingly enough when I find when I have people looking over my shoulder in
42:05
the studio and just happen to be hanging out, I do better work. I agree.
42:11
I’ll agree with that. Let’s try. Yeah, it’s like that come alive that way. So, uh and that’s where I go back to what we talked about
42:17
earlier is that whole collaboration thing. Um I think even in the sound effects and sound design area, it’s important to share your work, share your
42:24
passion. Um, and it’s it’s that way you could
42:31
you get feedback. It’s almost like a comedian who’s telling jokes to nobody. You don’t know what’s happening or
42:37
musicians who don’t perform live. You don’t know what’s what’s the emotion that that that
42:43
I’m getting back from the audience. And so if you can share that with people um even in something as technical as sound
42:48
design, I think I think that would help. Well, and I think that’s true about everything. You know, music is an art
42:54
and we make art to reach other people, at least theoretically.
42:59
Yeah, we had another question back there. Hi, I’m Helen from Loveway Studios in Austin. I just wanted to ask um I love
43:07
what Michael said about authenticity and a song that really makes you feel something and an artist that makes you
43:13
feel something. So, I’d love to hear everyone from the panel mention either an artist or a song that did that.
43:20
They should work with or or something that you’re supposed
43:26
or or not. [laughter] It really hit hit your soul resonated
43:33
with Does it have to be recent? It could be from any time. Yeah.
43:39
Or somebody. All right. uh not a song, but uh there’s an artist called The Caretaker
43:46
that who did a six and a half hour long um recording called Everywhere at the
43:53
End of Time and it’s a six album basically descent into dementia.
44:03
It is one of the most intense deep things I’ve ever heard in my entire and a lot of
44:09
it’s it’s a lot of it’s like plunderonics. So he basically found records in like thrift shops and things
44:16
like that and processed them. But if you go on YouTube and look for this, you’ll see it’s got over 32 million views. And
44:24
most of the people who are commenting on it are kids. Like we’re talking about like teenagers and pre-teenagers because
44:31
they all have someone in their family who has died or is in the process of going from dementia. It actually my
44:37
mom’s got like latestage dementia and it actually helped me kind of connect with her in a way that I never had before.
44:44
And it goes beyond there’s no text obviously at all. There’s nothing textual about it. It’s all emotion. It’s
44:50
all it’s all sematic sensory. You know, if something can do that for you, that’s
44:56
that is by def that is the definition of what a piece of art is supposed to do. Absolutely.
45:01
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think art should reach well beyond just the the s the superficial.
45:10
Well, it has to. It has to or else it’s not it’s just not art. You can call it what you want. It’s, you know, you can
45:16
say that’s music. It’s it sounds like music, sure, but ain’t doing it. Um I
45:21
have one recently which we were in um Nashville for Americana Fest. We’re doing a lot of just you know singer
45:28
songwriter uh stripped out band sessions and a band that I booked called My Lyra
45:33
out of Virginia. A friend of mine knew the manager and I just booked them. I had no idea. And then and this is not a
45:39
DEI agenda and I think but they walked in the lead singer was a trans woman and and we kind of were taking it back
45:46
because none of us expected it. And um and as the set went on and she began
45:52
singing a song apologizing to her parents for not being the son that they had wanted or was born and I just lost
46:00
my [ __ ] Pardon my French but and and and it hit me in such a way and and it just kind of reminds you that music is
46:07
personal and and and you know and and in my car I always I I I start every morning with
46:13
with you know uh bust the windows out your car or something. It’s just like just to bump me up and it’s like we listen to things that that boost our
46:20
moods but sometimes there things that we don’t expect that will touch us. It’s the truth.
46:26
180 I’ve been listening to on repeat a long December by Counting Crow.
46:32
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Perfection in a song. Um, but yeah, I
46:39
I’m go at my own pace, but like uh that that I like keep listening and I’m like, why is this song so [ __ ] And then
46:45
also though, contrary to you, like I’m so big on lyrics. I’m listening to every
46:50
word. Like I don’t know, lyrics are like there’s something that that in in production sense that that really pulled
46:56
me out. Yeah, I’m a I’m a I’m a big lyrics freak
47:01
as well. And you know, one of my all-time favorite songwriters is a a guy
47:07
named John Hyatt, of course. And um yeah, I I have a favorite line from John Hyatt that just it it still
47:14
moves me every time I hear it, which is just he says, “Well, there’s only two things in life that I forget what they
47:19
are.” [laughter] So, so
47:25
yeah. Yes. It’s like one of mine recently. I cannot remember the name of the band, but it’s a Croatian metal band
47:31
that releases. They release a song like every two years and just they’ll do a song and that
47:37
disappearing did a cover of Hurt, but a cover of the
47:44
cover. Oh. In metal and it’s phenomenal.
47:50
Love that. I think we had another question. uh you know in the creative arts and there’s a
47:57
tremendous um amount of vulnerability that is being asked of the artist.
48:03
You think you know and so yeah um I’m wondering what you guys do or if there’s
48:09
any process that you have to create a safe space for the artist to feel that vulnerability
48:15
because that’s where people really connect you know is in that vulnerability. I’m not I’m talking about theater now because that’s my genre. But
48:22
um in order for an artist to really connect with the audience, they have to have that vulnerability be feel that
48:29
they’re in a safe space. So I’m just wondering if there is a way that you guys, you know, help that artist feel
48:36
safe that vulnerable. That’s what we were talking about earlier about being a psychiatrist. Right.
48:45
So, I was on a project that was supposed to be a fairly quick
48:51
punky punk/metal project that ended up being three years because the artist I
48:56
think was in psychiatric ward three or four times over due to selfharb and
49:02
almost doing selfhar. that a lot of those sessions we had to take a very slow time because the material was
49:09
turned into originally like it was pun kind of political stuff to very much being over their mental health journey.
49:16
They are doing a lot better now but a lot of those sessions were we have to take it slow. How do I give feedback
49:22
about things if I don’t like them and changing things? Just learning a lot of that psychological like how to be the
49:27
therapist a little bit without being the therapist. allow the emotion to come out, but allow them to be able to
49:32
disconnect a little bit from what was going on.
49:38
Yeah, it was a fun project. I think we was like, “Okay, we’ll do a
49:45
session for this.” A fun project. It was fun.
49:50
It was fun. I want to party with this guy. There you go. There you go. The songs themselves were really fun.
49:57
They were it punk songs like traditional punk but with metal guitars.
50:02
So very fast, a lot of time signature changes, a lot of alternate chords and modes.
50:08
The music itself was really fun but the lyrical content was Yeah.
50:14
Okay. Well, as one of the old guys in the room, I’ve been blessed to grown up 50
50:21
years of studio. I had started in Red New York with Shell Jas and Jimmy.
50:27
I love Shell. Yeah, he’s my mentor. Uh 20 years of village reporter with super camp. We
50:34
went back for a year doing tusk and to save pre-production and
50:40
way it was I thought that could be done on Super Track. We spent a week getting drum sounds.
50:47
Wow. I didn’t hear that today. That record’s dancing test of time.
50:52
Yeah. um Rodney Nichl
50:58
and uh learned so much through those years and of course today I wouldn’t be
51:04
able to know how to make records in this world of cheap and fast
51:10
unfortunately but it’s art we don’t have the luxury we had years ago and it I like I said I’m
51:17
blessed to go through that and see the evolution of it and I remember the days No, 16 track machine. You hit four
51:24
tracks of drums, kicks there, and drums left or right. Y, you made decisions very early on what
51:30
final things. You committed to things. Yes, exactly. So, pre-production and production was a
51:35
big deal. Today, it’s very easy and I fall into it, too. It’s lazy saying we can to fix this a little later. We can
51:42
move things around. We can fix the time. We can fix the pitch. We can do it because we kind of have to.
51:48
But I think decisions are your friend. Yeah. I think the idea of making those decisions and making those commitments,
51:54
you know, otherwise by the time you’re you’re done tracking, you have no idea what you have, right? Like the digital
52:01
recording interview and they’re talking about uh how digital
52:08
recording is going to change workflow to be so much better, so much faster. And they’ve talked about rewinding tape.
52:13
Well, rewinding tape gave it a chance to think. Absolutely. Absolutely.
52:18
Instead of doing has changed. It has changed the process. Do it again. You’re going to do it the same way wrong again.
52:24
Yeah. The human brain has not sped up. Um, our technologies allowed us to increase the
52:30
speed of the session, but the creative mind hasn’t hasn’t sped up, which I’m
52:35
really excited to hear Susie and Alec talk about production. Uh, the fact that you guys are feeling and getting to know
52:43
the song before you even hit record. Yeah, I think that’s a wonderful thing. So yeah,
52:49
I I embrace the new age and what we’re doing. It feels fascinating for me to see that whole
52:56
No, well I want to say thank you to
53:02
Simpy’s giving me a a heads up here for something for one more. Do we have time for one more? Okay,
53:07
absolutely. Um I had the privilege of working with Storm’s maintenance engine after seven
53:14
years throughout Billy Jos into Placid Domingo Karen Karen Carpenter albums
53:20
working on Frank Sinatra um Elliot is my lady. I was there for all but I was flying along. I loved watching him work
53:26
well and Phil for me was greatest of people because his sensibilities of how
53:32
he interplayed with people was paramount. He knew exactly what the This
53:39
is and he watch you can see it come and being there every day I just say okay
53:44
you’re going psycho mode psychology mode
53:49
same thing but especially just going back and rewind too that
53:56
70% of all the Billy Joel songs that we all know and love were recorded in studio Billy came in with the material
54:02
and Phil sat down there and held court and had a wild track two track going on so he can make sure that nobody forgot
54:09
So here we are talking about the digital age and how quick things happened. Things happened in a very modern fashion
54:15
and he did it with a big whiteboard and he had drums effects who’s going to do
54:21
the overdubs who’s taking care of the the the u uh software and he was this
54:26
great interpreter of the studio. He was a mate conception himself. He was a child prodigy and to be that person I am
54:34
I I wouldn’t be where I am here now. I think he’s really the perfect example
54:42
of what we’re talking about and and yeah, I I had the privilege of watching him work just one time, but it it made
54:49
such an impression on me because yeah, he really did um exactly what we’re
54:55
talking about here, which is just really dig into who are you and not just why do
55:01
I want to listen to you, but why do you want to be making this statement what
55:07
you’re trying to make, right? Yes. I think that’s a a really amaz I mean, that’s why we do this. We don’t do this
55:15
because we want to play with dials and and and faders and stuff. No, we do Well, a little bit. Yeah. But but we do
55:23
this because we want to create something beautiful. We want to create something
55:28
that hopefully is going to touch other people and stand with [clears throat] like like
55:33
you were asking earlier about you know what um something that really made an impression on you. As far as I’m
55:39
concerned if if you’ve had the the the great honor of making a recording that
55:45
people will come to you later on, you know, and even if it’s just one person, right? Like I’ve had somebody come to me
55:52
and say, you know, thank you for helping me make this recording because this was such a cathartic experience. Being able
55:59
to do that, let alone being able to make a recording that’s touched
56:05
thousands and millions of people. What an honor that is to be able to bring that out from somebody, isn’t it?
56:13
Absolutely. I mean, that’s that’s why we do this. At least I hope so.
56:20
I mean, playing with compressors and microphones and stuff is kind of fun, too, you know, but it’s really a
56:25
byproduct, I think.
56:32
Okay. Well, I want to thank each of my panelists.
56:38
[applause] I want to thank all of you for coming.
56:51
Hey, I’m Daniel Keller. Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button and join us each week for Insights and Sound.