Insights In Sound 196 “Trident: The Story of a True Legend” Live at AES 2025 S20 E6

Welcome to Insights and Sound, where we talk to the people behind the scenes, behind the technology, and behind the
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Well, welcome all of you. My name is Daniel Liston Keller. I’m chair of AES
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LA and host of the Insights and Sound podcast. And my guests today from the
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far side, appropriately enough. Yes. Joe Vetti.
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Good morning everybody. Far side. Thank you.
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From Cherokee Studios, Mr. Bruce Ralph
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uh from UCLA by way of Trident Studios, Adam Mosley
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and author, musician, historian uh and all-around master of all trades,
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Mr. Brian Ki.
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And uh this is this is sort of um I I guess we we did this once already, but
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we’re going to do it again and it’s probably going to be completely different this time because we’re all
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very much uh add here. So, uh we turn
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squirrel. Yeah. But um we’re here to talk about Trident and and that includes
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both the consoles and the studio itself that begat the consoles
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and um so let’s first just open up with a little bit about the beginnings of
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Trident Studios because uh this was a this was a particular era and I think
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talking a little bit about the era will then sort of influence the uh the
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creation of the console and that discussion. So, Trident Studios began in
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an era where the entire music industry and recording industry was changing
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pretty dramatically. We were going from corporateowned studios and engineers in
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white smoks to uh really creating a situation where
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it was all about the artist and everything had to do with catering to the artist and taking care of the artist
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and just creating a more creative space. So, Trident Studios
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more or less was one of the very first studios that really was created with the artist in mind. Um, and Brian, I know
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you can speak to a lot of that. One of the things about this new studio, and we’re talking the later60s when it
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opened up, uh, a good comparison is my reference point, the Beatles are a good reference point for almost anything.
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They’d been at EMI, which was a corporateowned studio owned by the label with Capital Tower in Hollywood. Same
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kind of deal. RCA in New York where studios were owned by the label, but they were told to do this, paid for by
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that. It had a certain function to it, but Trident Studios started in downtown
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London, a section called Soho, which is a very hip restaurant, a nightclub type
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place. You wouldn’t think of a studio much there, but down this little kind of walkway alley there is still the
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building where Trident was multi-story complex if you will and not huge but a
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cool and the idea was a hipper modern studio which is what those groups like
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the Beatles and so forth were looking for even dragged Beatles out of their own main studio. We all think of Abby
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Road as being cool. They thought it as being old and very fuddy duddy. So when they experienced Trident which had the
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first eight track machine going on there and they experienced recording with cool dark lights and very hip kind of place
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with carpeting and things like that they weren’t used to that and they thought this is the way to record which is now what we all do
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and unrestricted hours too. That’s another thing, you know, uh, studios like EMI, they really worked in shifts
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and you were there for the 4-hour shift or 6-hour shift, whatever it was. And during that time, it was all regulated
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and you were relegated to a certain amount of hours that you had to be in and out. And again, that did not really
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jive with the creative process. And especially as uh musicians started
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getting more and more loose and um shall we say indulging in more and more substances and whatnot, this kind of
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mentality was really it it didn’t quite really work. And so
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the Beatles in particular were very very happy to get the hell out of that. And also uh this was a studio that embraced
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new technology. They had the first eight track machine which you know you’re talking about you
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know we we famously we most of us know that most of the Beatles recordings were done on fourtrack. This was the first
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time that anybody had seen an eighttrack machine and that in itself really
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changed the creative process. Yeah. It became a very hip studio and
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one of the key components was as with the institute of the people that worked there. So the famous well-known
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engineers that are known for Trident is for Thomas Baker, Ken Scott and guy Rob
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and Jeffrey Cable as well. They very strong engineers who put a stamp on the
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recording of business as well as their own records. Yeah. Yeah. And and a lot of these
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people really came up in those. Now Ken Scott Kent Scott came up in Abbey Road and was more or less lured away. Um but
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a lot of engineers really came up in the Trident culture and that in itself
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really kind of begat a whole new generation of you know you you talk about uh RTB Roy Thomas Baker you know
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uh he really started out doing things differently than the white coats at Abby
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Road for example. Yeah. And I think that particular generation of engineers that was a I mean and that
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and that’s who we all are in that sense. You know, we’re we’re those people who came up in this era of you know really
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caring more about about the artist and about creating the music than about well
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tea time you know things like that. So uh now Adam you you uh you were not
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there at the beginning of of Trident Studios but you were there at uh a very
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early phase of the studios and so you were kind of immersed in the culture pretty early on too right?
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Yeah I I started at Trident in 1978 uh January 12 to be precise. Um
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date which will live in infamy. Yes it does. Um, so I
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my story is that I had bands and my bands were crap and I was crap and I
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thought, you know, if I move to London, uh, I was born in Brighton. If I move to London, I can put a band together, a lot
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more musicians, you know, put a great band together, become a rock star. Moved to London,
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went to law school, put a band together, we were still crap. And I thought, okay,
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so maybe it’s not the city I’m in. Maybe it’s more to do with me and I need to know how to make records.
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Wherever you go, there you are. Yeah. And from the my earliest recollection was always that reading the
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back of vinyl albums and producer was the big name. So I thought, well, he must be the guy that knows. So I’ll
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become one of them. So I wrote 100 letters to studios because you could write to 100 studios back then or or
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decent ones in London. And I got one reply um which was from a studio I’d
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never heard of. didn’t know anything about it. Trident went for the interview. Studio manager asked me why
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why did I write to them and I said well you know I’m wondering do you do you have any jobs going as a producer? I’d
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like to be one of those. And and he laughed and he said you know did do you know anything about the studio? I said
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no. And he said well a few people have done okay from here you know. Um and I
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thought okay and he said but we’re enlarging this the control room at the moment. Triton had two rooms, separate
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floors. The control room, the tracking room, where the control room was upstairs looking down. And then the next
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floor up was the mix room. And he said, “We’re enlarging the control room. I’ve got 15 people working. I’m effed off
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buying takeout food. It’s too expensive. I see in your letter that you can that you’ve worked in restaurants that you
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can cook and you’ve also done construction,” which is what I did in my summer holidays. So, he said, “Um, I’ll
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offer you a job doing construction and cooking. Um, start at 9:00 a.m.
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construction during the day in the control room to make the room big enough to put the A- range in.”
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Um, and then at 4:00 in the afternoon, come to me, tell me how much petty cash you need to cook for 15 people. There’s
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a four-wing electric stove on the top floor. I want to cook three course meals. Cook, serve up, clean up. then
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you can go back to construction 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 a.m. six days a week and I’ll pay you 20 quid a week 20 a week
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about 27 bucks back then and I thought wow I get I get paid I get paid really I like wow showers you
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know didn’t quite suit my immigrant grandparents where you know becoming a
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chef and construction guy in a rock and roll studio and quitting law school that wasn’t quite their plan but um I knew
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nothing about the studio um And at the time we were just like I was doing all
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the like menial kind of construction stuff and then as the construction got
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more and more done and I was one of maybe 12 people struggling to carry the
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frame of the a range in so heavy and then they started putting these long
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things in with lots of with lots of buttons on them and I thought oh my god what have I done I thought I I will
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never understand I’m never going to be able to. I’d failed every science at school.
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Everything technical I’d failed. I will never understand this. And seriously, I thought, you know, I’ve only been out of
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law school for 6 months. Maybe I can get back in. But but as the modules were put
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in the board and then as I started to see music happening and the first session I saw happening was Peter
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Gabriel too, uh the scratch album and when I saw the magic of that coming
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together. Um, and then from being the chef and construction worker, I moved up. I got promoted after 3 months to tea
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boy, which had been the lowest human form of life, but I actually had to step up to it. And then the typical route
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was, you know, from tea boy, if you could deliver tea and coffee on time at
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the right temperature to the right people with or without sugar, not spilling it on the trade, 24 cups in the
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elevator of five stories that had the bounce on each floor was a bit different. If you could manage that,
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maybe you could manage being on on a session. And then as tape, I became
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senior tape. Then an assistant engineer, an engineer, started to co-produce and
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produced. But the guys I learned from were the guys who created the Trident
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way. As you say, RTB, whose engineer was Mike Stone, and I wor with Mike Stone for about 3 years. And the first records
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I was involved in in a recording assistant recording capacity were the
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the four solo Kiss albums which Mike So that was my first kind of like involved
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in recording and my first hands on the console mixing was uh Rush Permanent
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Waves. So, nothing like in the deep end. Nothing too challenging. But yeah, RTB,
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you know, Ken Scott, uh, Robin Cable, Gus Djon, um,
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you know, the Genesis guys, the Elton John guys. It’ be good to mention the people that owned Trident were brothers.
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Yes. Yes. Very important to different from each other. Yeah. In that sense,
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affectionately affectionately called the Pana Brothers.
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That was the affectionate name for them. That would be a hint. Yeah. If anyone’s seen a guy Richie
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Nuvie, you get the kind of vibe. But they were innovators. Barry was an
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engineer. He’d done one of the engineers on Hey Jude and always the dispute of
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which Mick was a Ken’s mix or Barry’s mix. But B Barry was like more one of us
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because he was an engineer and you know he had more of that awareness and
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character and Norman who wrote a very
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interesting book. He was a character more manager although and more financially oriented. So he became
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essentially a manager of Queen who they kind of gave studio time to in the middle of the night. This no new band
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Queen that had never recorded was allowed to record there at night. So the early Queen work was done there, but he
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also became their manager. And years later, this Queen pulled away from him, they wrote a song called Death on Two
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Legs about him on the Night at the Opera record. Absolutely. And although it never named
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Norman, um Norman sued Freddy and they settled down court even though cuz
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everyone knew what it was about. And Norman’s Norman wrote a memoir called Life on Two. on Sudex which was a FU back
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at at the song but it as you said it was very experimental we were all none of us
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had a clue what we were doing I don’t think anyone came into that studio with any experience everyone had just left
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school usually early and just was on a path to get to the door of that studio
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and get in and then find out what it was about. I had no idea what I was getting
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into. I had no idea what was involved, what was required, but the minute I got in there, I just felt this is where I’m
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meant to be. And I started to see the magic of musicians and the power and the
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producer and the engineer. And I never looked at the console in a technical way. It was only always for me an
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emotional way to create the set turning buttons to create the sound of an emotion. And that’s stayed with me for
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decades. And and I think that’s a nice segue into the console because the console was
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created in almost the same sort of haphazard fashion. Yes. U you know uh so essentially they they
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had an engineer there by the name of Malcolm Tooff who was I believe employee number two or three
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something like that. He got his job by just happening to be at the opening party and Norman at one point just
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yelled out, “Anybody want a job?” and and uh yeah, Malcolm showed up and
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Malcolm had never designed a console either. Uh in fact, as Malcolm explains
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it, uh even after he designed this console, they spent another 6 months reverse engineering it so that they
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could write the documentation. Yes. Yeah. Uh but this the entire science and
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I use the term loosely of designing this console uh really was was the seat of
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the pants would be a nice way of putting it. Um and now one of the very first
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consoles uh ended up at Cherokee Studios and I
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believe Bruce you have a a lovely story about auditioning that console. always
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want to hear. Do tell. Okay. Yeah. So, we got the first Trident Day
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range in uh in the US and we’d been a band for years and I’d been touring
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since 1960 when I was 13 and moving on forward to that. And uh when you’re on
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tour, you write all your songs. So, the labels we were on said, you know, when you get back, we’ll give you a budget and go in and cut all these demos. So
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just goes on when Dunh Hill was our last one name say so we’ve got our own studio
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now you can come here and cut well what they’ve done is they’ve cut the budgets because we called and said can we come
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in they said no three dogs night making an album but in 2 months you can come in so we built a studio out on our land
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shworth out of our barn and uh we started with an ampex four track which
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was a step up from the three track but uh it was it was It really became an
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incredible situation because we were a band and we were one of the few bands that actually owned and built studios
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and so we were really concerned with what things sounded like and we had an MC on a council for the first one which
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sounded good as long as we didn’t use anything on but it was like that and so we started
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auditioning councils and ne send us beautiful mahogany cases to to Rosetta
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and we got Helios Kadak at API and
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we’re listening to stuff do them and we we like the API at the moment because it
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was the cleanest most open thing and I you know there’s some consoles that oh it’s got that warm sound well I’ll warm
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it up myself I don’t like things that color the sound I want I want output
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sound just like input so we’re going around and we’re thinking why do Harry
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Nielsen records sound so incredible They make your stereo more valuable to Cleveland.
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And so we thought, Trident, let’s call Trident. And we called and they said, “Well, we’ve got our board that’s going
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to be ready pretty soon.” And they were kind enough to say, “We’ll put ours back
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and send this to you guys.” And the difference was unbelievable. We actually
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ended up putting it in over uh over the
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holidays. And Rod Stewart had been in first and uh then over the holidays
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Bowie came in and started his album and Rod came back. He said, “Can I hear some of Bowie stuff?” And we did. He said, “Why does it sound like that?” He said,
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“Well, we put the titr range in.” And we ended up recutting a bunch of his stuff
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because the difference is that knowledgeable and people telling you that uh you know, the sound of it doesn’t matter that much. Well, it
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didn’t used to. on old rock and roll was pretty sonically lame. But as groups got
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better and particularly as the 60s hit suddenly, you know, acid rock, folk
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rock, all of that, you started doing more acoustic instruments and the sonics became really important. The Jefferson Airplane, good lord, that was spent many
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great nights listening to that. But when we heard the A-range, that made an
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incredible difference. And people sorry people that were coming in the engineers
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would always end up saying the same thing you’ve ruined me and it’s really
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hard to go to anything else. I know that when we closed Cherokee I had to go to a few studios that were around and I had a
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really tough time going yow how my this is not the same. How would you describe the
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characteristics that you were hearing from the a range mixboard? It probably it probably let had more transient
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response than anything I’ve ever heard. And right now I’ve got the AU from Studio
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One and that was a board that uh we got talked into buying a knee for another
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type of clientele. They said, “Oh, if you have this it will do that.” And word around town was something’s wrong
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with charity’s knee VR. And so we called them and me sent two engineers over for about four or five
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days. went through the whole board and they said it’s perfect. They said where are you getting this from? What what
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studios? They said it was Mars and they said can you see it? So we took them into studio one range and they’re going
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oh my. They said can we measure this? And he said well we’re actually getting
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noise and distortions filled with it up to 90k. I said what? How did how did you know
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that? We had one of the big Huelet Packard things with more knobs on it. Nobody could run them. And uh Toby
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Foster was our chief engineer who we’ve lost. And uh he was a legend. And they
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said we can fix this. And Toby said don’t you touch that. He said what you’re hearing is harmonic distortion.
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That’s the Rosman violin bows. And they said it doesn’t matter that if you’re the records come out and there’s not
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much above 10 or 12k. What you’re hearing is the harmonic distortion coming back through. And what that gives
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you the sound of is you’re hearing the room. And when you did that with the A- range, when you put that in, I can be
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driving in the car and immediately could tell just from the sound of the room, that’s studio one. It’s it’s amazing.
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And it uh it does so much of your work for you. The board just sounds gorgeous
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with anything. We’re also finding now that I’m I’m doing we do a fair amount
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of analog there. I just did an analog session last week and uh then I finished an album before that that I used
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ProTools on and I use ProTools just for the tracks. Um
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like a tape like a tape. Yeah. And it it’s I had an engineer that said uh I know the algorithm for every
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piece of walk gear you got here. The pull taxi everything. And uh he said I I
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got all of these right here. And I said, “No, you got pitches. That’s the real thing.” And when you go in and put that
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in through the trident and then run that channel by channel, bust everything out.
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No stems, no uh not instead, but no comps, nothing in the box. And we run it
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through the A range and you come out with a different record. It’s just it’s absolutely amazing sounding. We’re just
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uh doing something else that it does. We have a a system that we used at Cherokee for years that people would cut things
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on and it was actually mostly digital stuff that was very crushed and compressed and everything and was like
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what do we do and they booked the room and our tech staff in Brown and everybody had built what you called an
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ambience retrieval program that you’d use and we just did an album became a
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heavy metal album that people were mailing their parts in and ran through the Tritons track by track out
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of the ProTools. And we said, “Wait a minute. You’re telling me that’s cut on
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ProTools, not the A range.” And I said, “That’s going through the A range and do a whole bunch of other systems that
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we’re using.” And the difference is astounding. Just putting anything through the A range, you go up the steps
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and you’re you’re in a much better place. Takes less to do a record. You you find yourself not doubling acoustic guitars
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to some gorgeous one of them. We talked about four studios at your place. You mentioned studio one, but
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there are four consoles. We had four A-ranges. One of them we that’s one of them we took out, put the
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knee I just told you about and we put it back soon when we pulled the knees out.
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So anyway, um what else? Well, I want to I want to rewind a little bit because
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when Trident first I mean you were really the first studio in states to get
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the Trident console and uh Brian you and I have had this conversation before about the way that Trident marketed this
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because you know Trident Studios before they created the A- range um what did they
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have in there? Sound S sound techniques. Sound techniques English company from the mid early60s that made their own
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mixing boards not popular and not famous until recently cuz they didn’t make many of
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them right but at the same time some very very famous records were recorded on
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those Sound Techniques consoles and the way that Trident marketed oh we’ve got
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this new console here and you know the sound that that you know this is the the place where we recorded Pink Floyd and
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the Beatles and everything And the irony there was that these consoles were not
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actually the consoles that were I mean it was it was great marketing on their part you know.
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Well key to the Trident legacy is that early Elton John records were done
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there. So your song and things like that recorded there. Uh the Bowie records up
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until about 723 uh are done there as well. So Ziggy
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Stardust for example, Hunky Dory which even sounds better. Yeah. um were done there on those sound techniques boards
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and they are very very good sounding mixing boards the company’s recently relaunched too. So that’s part of the
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legacy was just that these great sounding records were coming out of Trident and people that heard them and again I’ve even had tapes come in just
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the old 16 track tape you put it up and you say wow again in those days what did
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we have? We had a microphone into the channels the same channels for the drums
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for the vocal. You didn’t use different preamps you didn’t use different EQ. You use what the board had. So the sound of
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that board in the old days was printed to tape. You could hear the sound of the room and the
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sound of that console. That’s what you were basically hearing. And so when people listen to those very famous records and there’s quite a few Walk on
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the Wild Side, uh Early Queen, as I said, some great records, Harry Nielson, etc. Done in Trident.
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Yeah. Wonderful works. Quite a Yeah. Genesis, but not on Trident consoles.
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Yeah. Well, and they did at one point transition even the Bowie changes to being Trident desks. And so it’s just
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one of the things again the brothers and Barry was a very good engineer made a lot of cool records. Um they got out
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there and made this company which they were calling Triad. We haven’t mentioned that before but Triad is actually the
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name on the owner’s manual if you see that. Triad is their manufacturing company but
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also it became a wing of them to do video work. They thought that videos for music would be very important and guess
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what they were right. So when you see early Queen videos for example again Queen handled by them they were pushing
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for video component to music in film in those days and that was what triad was doing all
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these different kinds of things besides we have a recording studio in London. No we have other concerns whatever they
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were good or bad concerns doing things all around town to to make things happen. They they they out of triad was
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Trident Audio Developments and the consoles were manufactured out at Sheperton Film Studios because the WHO
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owned Sheperton and the who’s offices were in Soho right by Trident. So they
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did a little tradeoff, you know, for Trident owned their building. So Trident got to Space Sheperton. Um, and then
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they formed Trillium, which was the video company, and had the first mobile video unit. And they were they were
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hired by the BBC to record match of the day, foot, the soccer matches, because the BBC didn’t have it themselves. And
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yeah, Norman was so forwardinking. Yeah. Well, not I mean I I think
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probably inspired by that first date where they recorded Hey Jude there, you know, they saw they saw the reach of
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that where all of a sudden their studio really went from pretty obscure to world famous
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almost overnight because the Beatles recorded Hey Jude there instead of at
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EMI. Yeah. So again, you know, a lot of I mean, a lot of great marketing and and
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uh marketing is not always honest. I know that I know that may shock some
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of you, right? Yeah. What I I know I know, but and I’m always
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struck by the by the irony of the fact that really, you know, Trident consoles
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were hyped on the basis of a lot of recordings that were not recorded on them. But what came
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out of it though was a great console. So they might have even said, “Oh, you like this Elton John record.” They did that.
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I tried it and we have our own console. Implying that it was done on their console when the console was
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equally good sounding and I think one of the features well besides the mic pre which is very very special sounding,
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very very open would be a good way to put it. very transients, very
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extreme low end, a very linear low end, which was kind of unusual, but also the EQ is very special. The A-range board is
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kind of different than anything you’ll run into out there. And it has four bands of EQ, but each band has a fader
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on it, so you can select a frequency if you want, but then you’ve got a fader, which engineers are very used to using
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or the tactical feel of the screen. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you can look at it and see, oh, the low end’s pushed, the high end’s pulled
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out. You can look at it visually and see right away that Well, also Sonic, we got the time saying
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music was starting to really catch on to what Sonics could do. Yeah. People were coming in and saying, “We’ve
29:55
never sounded like this. We never made a record like this.” And it’s, you know, the A-range is nothing like it. And I
30:01
don’t know if there ever will be again. Yeah. I mean, working on that console and, you know, I mean, I cut my teeth at
30:06
Cherokee and and learned almost everything I knew working on those consoles and then going anywhere else
30:13
and working on a different console. It wasn’t just the sonic experience, it was the tactile experience because the
30:19
workflow on those is so unique in that sense. It It was just for all of all of us
30:27
coming in knowing nothing about it. and Mike Stone who ended up doing the Five Queen albums and the Kiss albums and
30:35
then a a lot of really great Asia Hebs.
30:40
Mike quit school. He was at school with El now King Charles. He quit when he was
30:45
like 16, made it to London and turned up at the doors of Triton, became a tea boy. No one knew anything but that a
30:53
range was so intuitive. It was so easy to look at it and to understand how to
30:59
manipulate sound. And and as as you said, the first time I
31:05
went to another studio and was on a different console, my my world fell apart.
31:10
I had no reference at all. 3K wasn’t 3K anymore. You know, 100 Hz wasn’t
31:17
10K was the one that really hurt. Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. every the whole thing was different and it was like what
31:24
I I’d spent my first four years on that and then I went back to tried it in the 80s and put a new team together but um
31:32
yeah one it was so intuitive but also um just the sound and the response to
31:39
the frequencies it it just made sense and sometimes on other consoles what it says on on the dial it doesn’t to my ear
31:47
still doesn’t make sense always you know You feel you fill out the other consoles, you get to know them. Drums are the hardest thing to record.
31:54
Yeah. But when you bring them up in the A range, it’s completely different. Yeah. And and you know, part of the
31:59
irony of that is that, you know, as we were saying, a lot of a lot of this design was really kind of seed of the
32:05
past. I mean, I know Joe, you’ve talked also to Malcolm Taft quite extensively,
32:10
and you know, I I mean, I was really struck by how I I mean, he’s incredibly
32:16
honest about the fact that he had no idea what the hell he was doing.
32:22
Give him credit. Oh, no question. Well, he just started quote unquote. Yeah. Yeah. But he was basically
32:28
learning on the job. Yeah. you know, talking about those EQs for a minute. In the same way, they didn’t know what
32:35
would be a good frequency. They worked with the engineers there and did test
32:40
like this mid-range, that mid-range, and they ended up with their own select set of frequencies, which may be different
32:46
than another board just for those reasons, but it was chosen for musical reasons by the engineers there.
32:51
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it really was designed on on the basis of well, what
32:57
do you think? How does it sound? And I think, you know, that that is a lot different than the way APIs or knees or
33:05
any of these other consoles were designed because they were designed by quote unquote real engineers with specs
33:12
and meters. Yeah. Mhm. You know, um, speaking to the A range
33:18
specifically, Malcolm and Barry Porter were the two chief designers on that
33:24
and Barry was the smart man who put the circuits together. Malcolm had the ears
33:30
and Malcolm had the foresight to talk to the other engineers that were at credit.
33:35
So, I don’t know about you, but if I’m talking to Thomas Baker and I’m talking
33:40
to Ken Scott, when they tell me it doesn’t sound right and it needs to do this, I’m going to listen because they
33:46
know what they’re doing from an operational perspective. And that was one of the big things with
33:52
that that other costume manufacturers like, you know, they sit there in their labs and play with all their test gear
33:57
and go, “Oh, it does this and it’s cool and I can make, you know, it’s not the same as being in a studio engineer day,
34:05
you know, from knowing how to do this stuff. One of the most unique things about range in particular, and I’ve been
34:12
asked a few times, and my best description of it is it reminds me of a silver oil pickup.”
34:19
If you’ve ever heard, you know, Strat, it sounds completely different from Gibson. They’re both guitars. But a
34:25
Strat has a certain sonic character, particularly low end and high end, and how it responds versus a humbucker. I’ve
34:33
always referenced naive consoles as like having a humucker sound. You know, they’re a little muffling on
34:38
the top end. You know, they’re kind of thick in the middle, but they’re not the same as like an air,
34:44
which sounds like a single player. Yeah. That being said, be it a single coil pickup, you are subject to all the
34:50
laws of propagation of sound waves and so forth that a single coil pickup may have. So you have to have your grounding
34:57
scheme correct. Otherwise, you comes and buzzes and popsicles and all the little nuances that come with like having
35:03
distract. Don’t turn this way.
35:08
30°. Yeah, we used to get complaints every now and then from people that came in.
35:14
See, when I push the EQ in, I hear a pop. Said, “Well, don’t do that while you record.” Yeah.
35:20
It hurts when I do this. Make sure you do it on the beep.
35:26
Well, the EQ is their own separate, you know, entities that um I’ve been fortunate to have long discussions with
35:32
talk about, you know, because for me straddling the creative side of the technical side,
35:39
I remember having to talk with Malcolm. I’m like, you know, Malcolm, there’s 123 degrees of phase shift when you push it
35:45
on an average. And for a lot of people, those are horrible oracle specs because it started
35:51
comb filter and we start to lose, you know, somebody response, you’ll notice it mostly in the low end.
35:57
Mhm. And just like, well, how does it sound? I’m like, oh, it sounds great. He goes,
36:04
then our discussion is done. We don’t need to go into this anymore. Exactly. That’s how he designed the
36:09
whole console. Well, what’s interesting as you mentioned uh John there that it is a
36:14
feature because if you think about it when the a range came out the final format that most listeners had at their
36:21
home was a vinyl record and one of the things we know about vinyl is you really have to control your low end in order to
36:29
fit x amount of minutes on one side of the record. So the fact that you lose
36:34
some low end off the console when you have EQs and happy ax that works out
36:39
really well for the NFL punchy. Yes.
36:44
Mhm. We mentioned four consoles which might make you think that they’re very common if they’re in one building. The two
36:50
brothers had four consoles. In total there were 13 of these full format
36:56
A-range desks. So the A range in Trident Triads world is the top of the line.
37:02
It’s a flagship. It’s the best that they ever made. And it’s Hen’s teeth. Yeah. And so it’s pretty rare and there
37:09
are people who have, you know, sampled software, etc. So you can get your hands on a version of it, but uh the consoles
37:16
still out there and have some have gone to five or six different studios. Some have remained in the same studio. That’s
37:22
rare. But they also made other boards too down market ones like a B range was similar and simultaneous but not quite
37:29
the flagship. And then there are other ones like TS80 TSM and the series 80.
37:35
And they’re very good consoles. They share some ideas and some Sonics with the originals.
37:41
But still even those people would admit to the everybody that this is the top of the line. Yeah. And the TSM on is all IC based
37:49
whereas like the A range and the B range is all discrete transistor based with transformers. And and at this point uh several of the
37:57
original A ranges have been lunchboxed and um I think I know that there’s one
38:02
in the UK at the Friy. There’s one at East West. Um obviously Bruce you still have yours. Um
38:10
but there are not that many remaining. I think Brian you’ve been sort of documenting. They’re out there and we’re
38:15
going to put we were just talking Tiffany and I and we’re talking about putting together a website which has been my goal for a long time. Many years
38:22
ago I had two or three people I knew that had the A- range and they didn’t know the history. So we I said that’s
38:28
easy. History is fun and I dig into it for a hobby. Dumb idea because I spent thousands of hours now going through
38:35
where these boards came from, where they went. So we’ve tracked each of the desks and they all still basically exist. Some
38:41
have been sold in parts, but the consoles still are there, but they might have sold four channels or something. And some companies have
38:47
even added their own channels, copied them exactly and made them larger. But the concept is to put a web page
38:53
together where each console has its own life. You see go from studio to studio and then this uh famous John Melanchamp
39:01
record was done on this board and this famous Rod Stewart was done on that board. It would be kind of nice to have that as an evolving and growing story.
39:08
So, we’re seeking pictures if you do find any or know of any interesting pictures of the A-range consoles in situ
39:16
in their original positions or even now we have them for each version of the studio. And of course, all the modern
39:22
owners are happy to promote that. This one at East West or this one, there’s a place called New Monkey Studios up here,
39:28
the 405 that has an A range and that’s used on Rush albums and things like that, too. Each one has its history, its
39:34
famous records. So, uh, that would be a great place to put all this information we’ve all been gathering and dump it in
39:41
one place and it can grow because it’s a website, not a book, not an article. That new monkey came from Canada.
39:47
Yep. Yes. Studio. There’s one in a there’s one in a private studio in Nashville, I believe.
39:53
Yeah. A few years ago, I got a phone call from my or Apple Bomb because there was a studio out in Adora
39:59
Hills called American. That’s right. And he’s like, “They have a a range and they’re closing. would you like to buy
40:05
it? And then I called the owner and I said, “Hi, I have a friend of mine or Apple Bombs.” And they never called me
40:11
back. Also, I’m not saying anything. I don’t know what that means exactly, but that was to
40:18
the 13 original consoles. I’ve always heard rumors and maybe Adam, you can
40:23
fill this in. I don’t know. But there was a 14th console that wasn’t a full size. It was in white. And apparently it
40:29
lived in the transfer room, you know, also aka mastering room over at Trident Studios
40:35
on on on the third floor. We had the copy room and also like when when you’d
40:41
managed to get through being a tea boy before you could be put on sessions or maybe become a tape, you had to be
40:47
vetted by the whole building. So you had to go into tape copying for a month and just and just copy tapes, copy tapes.
40:54
But you learn everything about tape, every speed, every, you know, alignment,
41:01
the differences. So that was one month on your own. And there there was a a small little console in there. Um, and
41:08
then next door to that was the cutting room, race staff, uh, mastering guy, great mastering guy, still still doing
41:15
it. Um, and then you’d have to go into the mastering room and kind of like
41:21
assist there for a month. And then you’d have to go into the maintenance department um and help there. You’d
41:27
learn a a little bit, but basically everyone was vetting you. And at the end of it, there’d kind of like be a private
41:33
meeting about whether you were the right kind of person that could be put on
41:39
sessions. And it wasn’t just about your ability or your ability to remember how
41:45
many cups of tea and coffee or anything. It was about if they thought Yeah, I mean that was important, but um it was
41:52
also did they think that you could handle like the craziness that was going
41:58
on in in that period? Essentially, it’s the same today. you know, I mean, you still have to prove
42:03
that you’re capable of being a good hang and you know, it’s a lot more than just technical
42:09
knowledge, but but but back to the console for a minute, I think um you
42:15
know, there there it really would be interesting to find out where all of those went.
42:21
But we have it. It’s written down. I have it. You have tons of information. But your question about that board, um rumors of
42:28
this board, that’s not the only one. There are rumors of up to four A range consoles at the Vatican.
42:35
But ooh, but all right has been able to get information. However, almost simultaneously with the
42:41
A range, they were making the B range. Now, I’m sure the Vatican can afford what they want to buy,
42:46
but that’s the point. We never saw them, it’s a rumor, they could have made a different version. It could have been a B- range. Same with
42:52
the one in the other room. Would it need mic pres if it’s in a tape copying facility? No. So they might have just
42:57
made other consoles, a version of it. That’s why we say that there are 13 because 13 were on the listing of what
43:05
we built as full-size production consoles. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That’s
43:11
it was it was very difficult to get technicians understood that board.
43:16
Well, and that’s the thing too. I mean you mentioned this Bruce also that you know every single one of them was different. I mean you had different
43:22
specifications and diagrams for each one of them, right? Yeah. the the changes are all minor. The A ranges it’s like not every every
43:29
diamond mic sounds a little different, right? I mean, I know we had we had interchangeable, you know, I mean, I
43:35
remember that one of the routines that we had at Cherokee was we were recapping these these modules and we had several
43:42
spares and it it was, you know, it was kind of like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. you know, we always had some that we
43:47
were working on and when a module failed, it was time to swap one out and that went into the next stack of okay,
43:54
you know, maintenance on them. So, so they did get switched, you know, from board to board.
43:59
Well, when when Trident came to the US, when we when we got ours within couple years there were three more studios that
44:06
got them and suddenly we got get one of those. But they would get the technicians that were coming in and
44:11
looking at them and they said, “What is this a star ground? What? This is no good. changes. But I remember Barry
44:17
Porter gave me a call and said, “Look, I don’t know if you guys know this, but they’re changing these things around and
44:24
telling you this is the way to do it because it’ll stop any clicks or pops. Who cares what you change the sound like
44:29
it does?” You said, “Don’t change the grounding system whenever you do.” In fact, don’t change anything in any way.
44:36
There’s nothing you can do that makes it better. It’s just it’s it’s there. So the other thing is the reason you can do
44:43
that is when you open up a trident module and you open up an SSL module, it’s like there’s nothing in the Trident
44:49
module. It’s just just point there’s almost nothing in them. Yeah. Yeah.
44:55
And you you know the SSLs and things there’s layers of stuff. It scares me just to look at them.
45:01
Can we talk about Toby? You talked about their chief engineer Toby was able to create more modules because they needed
45:07
more channels. Instead of just buying a new board, why not expand the board that you have? Toby was brilliant. No question.
45:13
He was operational. Yeah. No, he expanded it and uh we we also did something else to the A- range which was
45:19
a George Oxburg, but he was saying, you know, you build a wall in front of it and you’re wondering why your speakers
45:25
the small speakers don’t sound like where the meters are sitting up there. Yeah. So ours is laid down flat. That’s
45:30
the only change. People come in and say, “Oh, it’s not an A range anymore.” No, we just weigh the thing down. And it it
45:38
made a huge difference. And uh like I was saying, everybody that came into there
45:43
had to come back. We probably had the biggest return clientele of anybody. You changed the color, too, by the way.
45:50
That’s Yeah. I mean, you know, let’s talk about the purple for a minute there.
45:55
Yeah. Oh, the oberine. Did I pronounce that correctly? Elbert today.
46:00
Well, cuz it is a plant. But um Malcolm in in typical Trident was like, “Hey,
46:05
how inexpensive can you make things?” And what I’ve been told from Malcolm
46:10
that down the road from the studio was an auto body shop that fixed cars. And they needed the color for the console.
46:17
And not only were they looking for a color, they were looking for something unique. And the auto body shop was
46:22
having to close out. They had gallons upon gallons of Alberine uh paint that he was able to get for like a couple
46:28
bucks. Yep. And that’s the only reason it’s in purple is they wanted to be unique and
46:33
they got it for cheap. That’s true. One of the boards is in blue. They did a you know again a custom color because
46:39
each one we did that had slightly different Yeah. And so slightly different choices while some were shaped in a linear
46:46
fashion. Some had an L-shaped corner to it. So depending on the room and depending on the client, how many
46:52
channels did you want? Uh setups like that basically again like based around a central concept which is what API and ne
46:59
were doing too but then some customization for each company. Yeah. Yeah. But on the on the APIs and the
47:06
needs and all of those there’s a coloration to the to the board that it would do to everything.
47:13
And to me that’s not a good starting point. Um, you need to you need to hear
47:19
what’s coming in and input out of the speakers. It needs to come back the same and then you can make sensible changes
47:24
that make a difference. Uh, and like I’m saying, mastering, when you
47:29
go into mastering these things, people do almost nothing to them. They’re you
47:34
barely need anything. And a dB at 50 and a dB at 10k. It’s it’s an A range. Well,
47:41
well, that’s the big, you know, that’s the big comment that almost anyone who has worked on an A-range will say, you
47:47
know, is that it sounds like nothing. You know, it’s got the most it what what
47:53
you put in, you get out. And that is the the beauty of that console really. And you could find individual pieces of
47:59
gear like the Ptech E full range equal. When I was talking to to Barry Porter,
48:04
he called, he was saying, you know, I was thinking about that Ptech remote. I was doing this and it’s got the same bell curve to the EQ which is just
48:11
gorgeous. It’s a wide curve. It’s not a narrow curve. It’s fixed. It doesn’t change. And the overlap in the EQ points
48:18
are just amazing. They’re magnificent. And uh he was uh he was very important
48:24
to us in the first year of having that council because he called tell us what to watch out for because there weren’t any in the country and no technicians
48:31
knew them. So it was it was a problem. But Toby did. Well, he used to record there. Yeah.
48:38
Well, we have about 10 minutes remaining, so I want to open it up to any Q&A. We got a microphone over there.
48:44
Um, go stand in front of it. Microphone of the aisle right here. Right there. Right behind
48:50
Jonathan. Sure. I remember Brian you mentioned
48:57
something about when they range first the the original I’m not sure if it was
49:04
the light breed like and uh was there something that they got a circuit out of
49:11
rewox or something? Yeah. So again as we were saying they confess to not knowing much. If you look
49:17
in Wireless World magazine, which is basically, you know, radio, hi-fi, TV,
49:22
and so forth in England, there’s a series on how to build a mixing board,
49:28
you know, um on September, it’s like how to make a mic pre on November, it’s how to make a summing channel and so forth.
49:35
But one of the things they did was they were testing various units and they felt that they really liked the front end of
49:41
a Reox tape machine, the Stutter Reox quarterinch little portable machine that people like. They loved it. But what
49:48
they did was they took that idea of a circuit. I don’t know how accurate it is, but they liked it. They used a
49:54
special transformer, which is part of the magic of those consoles that they have very special transformer.
50:01
Yep. And then that’s still a mystery. There’s still people arguing over it, but the mystery
50:07
might clear up soon. But then they took that and they used that concept as their starting point. And I’d be curious to
50:12
know because then the prices of these little um Reox tape machines might go crazy if you can buy a baby a ring and
50:19
put your own transformers in it. But that was it. They were inspired by a little semi-pro tape machine. And that
50:25
was the mic pre that became the most famous mic pre they ever made. There’s no such stuff inside cuz I built a
50:33
limited edition mic pre how I to make a mic pretty and I made so
50:41
you could switch in different input transformers on there and I had from
50:47
working with way back in the early 80s I had a couple flex
50:54
and they had the transforming and I’m not positive But I’m pretty sure
50:59
they were the same that were in the age range. Yeah. There is a small console designed
51:05
for Queen to go on tour. Yeah. Um that is a very simplified mixture,
51:10
but it uses the same fancy cool rare English transformers called Z-Ut
51:16
and then there’s an O at the end. So some people call them Zuros, but that is the technical thing. Zut O means the
51:23
type of zut transformer. And in the flexix consoles, which you can still
51:28
find fairly affordably, those transformers are inside it. Yeah. So I’m sure those
51:36
trans no.
51:52
It’s very different, isn’t it? Yeah. and it just had a magic to it. And so I
51:58
spent a whole lot of time reverse engineering the thing. I couldn’t get the the physical bob thing. I couldn’t
52:07
get that in that exact thing. But one thing we notice, it had very high 30 ft.
52:13
A lift a lifted arm. Yeah. Yeah. All transformers rings air to it. And I I just wondered I go
52:22
along the mantrums are coming out. the Alan just difference
52:30
that it made huge difference. Yeah. And it was shock, but I I was able to to
52:37
get the windings right. I don’t need to get that 30k deep. But it wasn’t easy cuz you get this geek and then this
52:44
chest cave and then come back up. I had to like handp pick on my friend and then
52:50
get three that had that magic. that experiment. Here’s a short a good and bad story. So,
52:57
I became friends well communicated with Norman Sheffield and then when he passed away, his son called me and said, “I
53:04
have a console I want to give to you.” And I drove out to the English countryside and he gave me one of these
53:09
flex consoles. I said, “Oh, great. These are the ones that Queen used to use on tour.” And he said, “That’s the Queen
53:15
board.” My dad had it. It was in storage and he gave me the Flexi Mixer. brought it back to LA and I had it restored and
53:21
I got it and I had it in storage. Someone broke in and stole it. Oh. So somewhere out there is that board in
53:27
the world. That that that board that specific Flex Mix was the one we had at Trident when
53:32
we went 48 track. Uh the the posters I think for the first honest bit of marketing that Norman did was that it
53:40
said Trident goes 46 track because two tracks were were for code. Uh, and
53:46
again, Trident was the first 48 track studio in in Europe and and our mixing
53:52
console, which was uh an A-range but configured differently. Um, 40 channel
53:58
and now we’ve gone 48. So, we used to have the flexi mix set behind. And your
54:04
first jobs as like an assistant on on the sessions would be you’d be at the flips mix and we’d use it for like
54:10
returns, reverb returns, effect returns, you know, and all the all the important stuff would go up uh the main 40
54:16
channels. But your job as the newbie was to sit and you were like the guy in the
54:21
orchestra with one simp symbol crash. you had one thing to do which was maybe
54:27
you know burst to bar three tambourine pan from left to right in the bar and as
54:32
it got closer and closer to that moment your palms were getting sweaty and like you couldn’t grip the button and you try
54:38
not to drip sweat into the into like the modules but um yeah the flexi mix and it
54:45
was a shorter it was a lower desk and it really felt like you at the family wedding of a mitzvah or something and
54:51
that you were having to sit with you you know you kids table yeah you were like 16 sitting with the 8-year-olds, you know, with your knees
54:58
that wouldn’t fit underneath. It was quite a low thing. But then if you didn’t screw it up and you managed to pan tambourine properly, then you
55:06
eventually got to sit with the grown-ups at the big table in front of you. But that that flexi mix, it was the queen
55:12
one. And pretty I’m even more sad that it’s gone, right? Yeah. Sorry, I didn’t mean to worry.
55:17
That’s okay. It’s out there somewhere. I I ended up gone to Stone who was uh at a
55:22
Magnar um which is the Toto’s demo/recording studio of their own. Yeah. and they saw
55:29
a lot of craziness and some of those two launched at my house and 20 years later
55:34
I was you know people are first engineer to pick but one other thing I wanted to say
55:40
working at Cherokee from 1981 to 84 I’m going to play ranges from Toby Foster
55:47
was some of the best years of my life so
55:53
Amen. Thank you Bruce. Amen. Thank you Bruce. We should also mention that George Martin declared it
55:59
his favorite studio. Can I tell you a quick Melbourne to story? Sure.
56:05
Just epitoifies try to they’re right on everything nearly. Our first Trident
56:12
arrives and they’re putting it together and we’re going, “Wow, this is this is incredible. This is really exciting.”
56:17
And then Malcolm is doing the installation thing. And so they open the boxes and
56:23
start to plug the modules in. And D, my brother and I were sitting watching
56:29
doing this and he says, “Malcolm, why is channel one on the right?”
56:35
Yeah. On the monitors, channel one is where it’s supposed to be, on the left, which when you think about this and backwards,
56:42
imagine panning and panning drums. It’s incredibly confusing. But what what
56:48
happened was we said, “Malcolm, why did you do this?” and Malcolm in true
56:55
trident form said, “Well, you never told us not to.” He was right.
57:01
The the the key thing that you guys have all mentioned was that just making it up
57:06
as you go along and that was the Trident way. That’s what all the engineers were just encouraged to do to be individuals
57:13
make it up as you go along. Find your own way of doing it. Obviously there was incredible knowledge and methodology
57:20
passed down from Ken and Waker and Dave Henchin and Gustoen the guys
57:26
that were coming in and making the Genesis and Neil and John stuff and there was a certain way to do things but
57:33
within that way was to try and find your own way be different and that was the kind of antithesis like you were saying
57:39
to the Abby roadway where Jeff wasn’t even allowed to place the mites himself you know Trident was That was the times.
57:46
That was really the times. That’s what was happening musically. Yeah. You can go driving the road. So,
57:52
yeah. So, even when we’re driving, we have to make it up as we go along, you know.
57:57
Yeah. But really, I mean, musically, technically, that’s that was really the it was the times, you know, that’s what
58:03
was happening musically. People were trying, you know, flanging. I mean, a lot of these technologies,
58:10
quote unquote, were really just happy accidents. Yeah. you know, and that’s that’s the
58:15
spirit of how music was created back then. And uh, man, I’m I’m grateful for
58:22
it. Yeah. One, you know, another thing makes a huge difference with Trident is when you’re
58:27
when you have something that’s you’re giving distortion to all your guitars and
58:33
everything like that. And your tracks are going to come out that way because everything you do that you’re repeating
58:40
is cumulative. And it’s only a little distortion. you add more, it’s more distortion. And with the Trident having
58:48
this perfect perfect sound in all the transates and everything you’re playing, you hear the room that you’re in. That’s
58:55
one of the reasons that when you fill up all, you know, 48 tracks that you’re working on,
59:00
nothing degrades, nothing gets crushed. It’s just it’s an amazing sounding thing. And it’s uh like I said, it ruins
59:07
you. The the So, play harass, ladies and gentlemen.
59:12
the when I knew the console was going to be sold out. I was there from 78 the beginning till the end of ‘ 81 when
59:19
Trident closed. Then it reopened towards the end of ‘ 83, but the lineage had been broken, the way of handing down the
59:25
T- Boy system. So I’d moved to New York. They asked me to come back and put a new team together in the 80s which included
59:32
Flood, Alan Moulder, Spike Stent, and there was a second era of Trident in the 80s which is phenomenal. Um, but the
59:41
last two things I can’t remember. It was maybe 85 that the console went to you. I
59:46
can’t maybe earlier. I don’t know it was 70s. 70s. Okay.
59:52
74. Yeah. You already had four when I came there. 85. So 74
59:57
75 is when we got it, I think. So the first one. Yeah. So, so when when I think it was
1:00:03
mid80s when one of them went um and I knew it was going and I was just in a
1:00:09
rush to get two records done before it went and they were two records that
1:00:14
essentially I didn’t back to back they launched my career and the and the sound of those records was so instrumental
1:00:21
you can recognize and yeah do you remember what those records were yes um
1:00:26
I’m safe thank you I was hoping Oh, that was that’s really good. Uh, The Cure
1:00:32
Close to Me. Um, and then a band called Blow Monkeys, a song called Digging Your
1:00:37
Sing, which is the one that launched me as a producer and The Cure obviously got a lot of attention for me,
1:00:43
uh, engineering, and they were done back toback last two things. Records finished, console out the door.
1:00:49
Ouch. Yeah. Well, I’m I’m sorry to say, but we are
1:00:54
we are out of time. So, I want to thank my panelists,
1:01:00
each of you, for putting putting this together and uh showing up down here in
1:01:06
beautiful scenic Long Beach. Yeah. And uh thank you all for coming.
1:01:18
Second time’s a ch. I know, right? Yeah. Beautiful.
1:01:25
Hey, I’m Daniel Keller. Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button and join us each week for Insights and Sound.