Insights in Sound 193 – “Feel the Fear and Say Yes Anyway” – Live at AES 2025 – S20 E3

Welcome to Insights and Sound, where we talk to the people behind the scenes, behind the technology, and behind the
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music. People you may not know, but you should. And please check out insights and
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sound.com for a full list of our podcasts and YouTube series. And big thanks to our sponsors, Mackie, Roland,
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Mojave Audio, Ozbot. Okay, we’re officially starting. Okay,
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welcome to all of you, including those of you who are still walking through the door. My name is Daniel Listen Keller. I
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am chair of Audio Engineering Society LA and the host of the Insights and Sound podcast. And my guests, starting on the
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far end, Kathleen Wart, hi. [Applause]
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Leslie Anne Jones,
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Ross Hogarth, and Susie Shin.
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Susie, we are here to talk about
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basically career paths. And we all and probably most of you share the same kind
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of career path which is kind of falling into things by accident and being called
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to do jobs that we don’t know if we know how to do and saying yes to it anyway
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because that’s the only way you’re going to get ahead in this business. And so I kind of
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want to start with a few little anecdotes from people. Um and and
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actually Susie, I know that we we recently spoke about yours. So do you
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want to kick it off this we we had a conversation where you were telling me about this one particular thing where
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somebody asked you to do something and you didn’t know how to do it. Do you remember this? No. That happens often though.
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Big one up. Um, no. I mean, I think that’s how like
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I I’ve done most things in life is like I I I’m terrified. Even like now, even
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at this panel, I’m like, “Oh god, I’m so scared.” But it’s like if you say yes, you have to figure it out. That’s how
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you learn. That’s how you get thrown into the fire. And if you can back it up, too. Go research. Go figure out how
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to do the drum thing. Go like this. But like your body um and your mind wants to keep you safe. They don’t care if you’re
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happy. They don’t care if it’s if you’re progressing. So, it’s like the answer no keeps you safe cuz nothing changes. And
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that that yes is the is the only way that it’s like, oh, you don’t want to go show up to the session at midnight that
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you just got asked to go to. Well, if you do, you show up and you get to work with Katy Perry or whatever, you know,
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and then that leads to something and that leads to something. Um I can’t remember the exact example I was
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speaking of but well but regardless of the particular anecdote I mean I think we all have
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stories about like being invited to something or being asked to do something you know like like my classic one is you
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know I got invited to a particular party and I was like ah you know I’m already in my sweats I’m comfy you know and if I
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had not been urged by my wife to say oh come on get out there you know you really you know sitting at home and
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bitching about things. I would not have met a person that got me signed to BMG to, you know, I mean, these kind of
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stories I think Kathleen is nodding here. Go ahead. Well, I was just thinking that one thing
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that we were talking about is opportunities happen when somebody else goes home. Yeah. So, you know, at the beginning of your career, um I many years ago, um an
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acting my acting coach said the one of the rules of Hollywood is to go to everything you’re invited to, but if
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you’re not going to be great, don’t go. You know, if you’re not at the top of your game, don’t let them see you like that. You just you prepare yourself as
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much as you can. Um, I was thinking about a friend of mine who scores and you’re starting a scoring career who um
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turned down a job because they were working at a different DAW than he works in and he was just kind of intimidated
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and thought no but he gave the job to somebody else and um the person who got it I think wound up scoring like I I’m
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not even going to say who it was or what the movie was but something huge that was up for an Academy Award you know and it was just like whoa you know and then
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looking back you go I could have I could have you know I could have learned um you know that doll just as easy you
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I it’s it’s the talent behind it, you know, and I think if you if you can do ProTools, you can pretty much do all of
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them. I mean, I know they’re different, but Absolutely. But it’s just learning the shortest
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learning curve. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I went through that with, you know, going from logic to ProTools, you know, same thing. Yeah.
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Yeah. But then you just actually mentioned something else that I thought was really interesting, which is the brave face.
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You know, there’s I mean, I got thrown into a session uh my first week at Cherokee and I something was going
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wrong. I couldn’t figure something out. And you know, there’s um as my friend Rick Allen put it recently, there’s the
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client face and there’s the face you have inside. And the face you have
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inside your head is, “Oh shit.” Right? But the client face is ah it’s all cool.
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It’s all cool. No problem. you know, and and hey buddy, can you come in here for a minute or you know, whatever it is,
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you know, you’re you’re you’re finding your way to figure it out, right? So uh you know you have this panel name
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the word fear is in it and uh you know fear is an interesting thing for me
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because fear can be an incredible motivator
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uh if I use it correctly or it can be the thing that completely stops me from
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doing anything. So, you know, it’s a it’s a complicated word because I also
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think fear just it only exists in my head. And so, depends what am I going to
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do with it when it shows up because fear has been an incredible motivator and it still is a great motivator for me cuz
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there’s a side of me and I, you know, I think most of us tend to be pretty or
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those of us that do this creative thing tend to be somewhere in the spectrum. So for me there’s this somewhat um OCD
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perfectionist that lives where fear can either like be perfect is the enemy of
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great but good can also be the enemy of great. So if I fear not being perfect I
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don’t want to do it. Like why why am I going to do it if I’m going to be only perfect? So for me it it motivates me a
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lot to still to this day to show up but have done some work ahead of time. so
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that I have something to work off of. Um, and I come from obviously before the
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internet, so I can’t like Susie was like, I do I do this. I didn’t do that when I started out. Um,
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and so yeah, I found um fear to be the thing that just to use another simple
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analogy. Well, first off, there’s a couple of acronyms that I love for fear, which is either uh [ __ ] everything and
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run or, you know, false evidence appearing real. Um, cuz it does all live
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up in my head. So, the thing that I found early on was to use it as a motivator to say yes, like has already
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been said. And cuz if I say yes, I I’m the guy that wants to and always wants
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to show up because showing up tends to be about 99% of the gig. It’s the opportunity,
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just showing up. And so all those things I said yes to early on, people go, “Well, what was your lucky break?” I go,
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“There weren’t lucky breaks. I just said yes.” And those things were hard work that no one else wanted to do. Like
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Susie talked about going and working it from midnight to whenever or whatever that is. So, I just find that, you know,
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as I’ve progressed in my career, I still use fear to this day to be the thing
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that’s like face everything and rule or whatever. I don’t know. Find a r
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word that works for you. But, um, it it is a motivator. It’s something that motivates me. And then I got to do some
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pre-production or whatever might be the details, devils in the details part of it. So, um, it’s an interesting thing,
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you know, cuz if I have a favorite Dodgers hat and I throw it over the wall of I got to go get it. I’m not going to
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just toss it over the wall and go, “Okay, screw it. I’m not going to go get it.” I’m going to find a way to get over
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that wall and go get my favorite Dodgers cap cuz I And then how do I do that? Always is the devil’s in the details.
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You know, one thing that you mentioned is fear. And fear is really in a certain
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way it’s anticipating a future that we have no control over. Right? We only have control over our responses
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to what happens. And that I think is the big thing right there is you can be afraid all you want,
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but that’s not going to really help you respond. It would we only have control
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over what we do once we face that situation. Leslie’s looking at me very
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No, I’m I’m just listening to you. Okay. Why listen to me? Well, and what Daniel’s talking about is
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the acronym uh future events already ruined. Yeah. Ooh, now there you go.
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So, that’s like the other side of fear. Are you like an acronym freak? I like that. I do like acronyms. I can tattoo them
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behind my eyelids so when I blink I see them. I love it. Yeah. No, but and and actually I mean Leslie, you and I talked
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about this too because you got you got thrown into a few things early on um
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without really being clear on what you were doing. Well, you know, I’ve been trying to
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think of what to talk about on this panel. Um
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uh because there just so many things that I could bring up. Um,
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you know, I’m I’m self-taught in everything I’ve done in my life, whether
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it be uh playing guitar. I mean, even though I came from a musical family, I
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was a self-taught guitar player, a self-taught singer, um, a self-taught
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recording engineer and producer, a self-taught wine maker. Uh there are um
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so there are so so many elements of of fear in uh all of that but there’s also
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some realization of kind of what you can do and what you can’t do and I I think
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that um there’s a difference between you know jumping in and and saying yes and
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trying to figure out later and just trying to act like you know everything when you really don’t.
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And there’s um it’s hard to recognize that difference. The the people who
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think they know everything and can just um uh they tend not to learn from other
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people and tend not to uh be able to put themselves in situations where they can
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learn. Whereas those those of us that kind of went into situations where we
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didn’t feel like we knew anything, you you have to have some confidence that you can figure it out.
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Yes. Um the person you referenced who with the doll, you know, I I really know
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nothing about ProTools except how to get myself into trouble when I have to call somebody. I mean, but I grew up in a
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world like Ross where we, you know, grew up in a different way with different um
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equipment. I can certainly apply everything I know to uh what is
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happening now, but I also know enough when to, you know, surround myself with
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people who know a lot more than I do. That doesn’t make me any less than what
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I am, but it just makes me smart enough to to know people. I think that’s a big point right there
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is, you know, we never want to be the smartest person in the room. At least I sure don’t. You know, I love the idea
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that I’m surrounded by people who, you know, I can call somebody, I can ask
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somebody something. And to your point, you know, those people you’re referring to who know everything,
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not only are they closed off from other people, but they’re not the people that anybody else wants to work with. Yeah. I I think in my um
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in in my career I can I can point it to two well there so many parts of my
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career that were kind of breakthrough moments for me that and and a lot of it was just saying yes like like like Ross
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said. But uh my first job in a studio I
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got because I wanted to learn more about um about producing about engineering
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records about the technical side because I wanted to be a producer and a manager. I never thought I would actually be a
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career engineer and but putting myself in that position and then someone uh it
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was at ABC recording studios. Uh we were uh so I was my first job was making uh
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tape copies and then there was an assistant engineer there was a project and their schedule changed and the
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assistant engineer did not want to change their schedule uh because they
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had to drive from wherever. I mean that was in LA many years ago and it was still tough to get around but they
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didn’t want to change their schedule to um accommodate the client’s schedule and
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um and my boss who ran the studio was asking if anybody wanted to do it and I raised my hand. Now, I’ve never been an
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assistant engineer. Um, but I raised my hand cuz I saw the opportunity
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and um I’ve told the story um many times. So, if you have heard it before,
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I um apologize. It was a a French singer and an engineer uh who I I admired and I
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got to assist them and we had the first automated console in Los Angeles. And um
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so I I found myself um the engineer would ask me questions about how to do
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things and um and I wouldn’t really know and and so I I he I kept saying excuse
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me and I’d run out to the tech shop and ask them the question and I’d come back into the studio and I would just point I
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say try try that you know and um the the engineer must have thought I had a
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terrible bladder problem because I I was always excusing myself to leave the
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room. But um I was lucky enough to have, you know, developed uh mentors in the on
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the tech staff that were, you know, more than willing to help me succeed. And
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that was a huge leap for me to um I I think that was my other than asking for
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the job in the first place, I think that that was probably my my first instance of of being challenged and just saying
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yes and trying to figure it out as I went. You know, that was, you know, that’s been one
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thing that I’ve experienced and I I think it’s probably universal to a lot of us is that if you’re not afraid to
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ask for help, there are always people there who want to share knowledge with you. They’re they’re dying to share
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knowledge with you because that makes them feel good also. You know, that makes them feel like, oh, I can
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contribute some knowledge to you. And so if you’re not afraid to admit that you don’t know, a lot of times that works to
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your advantage, you know, because, you know, there’s there’s this old saying that I love about imposttor syndrome.
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Imposttor syndrome is this state of mind of I have no idea what I’m doing and people are going to figure it out.
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They’re going to know they’re going to figure out that I’m, you know, and if we flip that and instead have the state of
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mind of I have no idea what I’m doing, but I’m going to figure it out. makes all the difference in the world. And if
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you’re willing to ask the questions, there’s always an opportunity to learn.
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I I decided a long time ago that uh it didn’t really matter why somebody was
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giving me the answers, whether they just wanted to hear themselves talk and act like they knew everything or whether
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they truly wanted to help me, it didn’t really matter. getting the answer. I don’t I don’t care why somebody is
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what their motivation is. What I care about is the information. Exactly. And what I care about is wanting
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uh to get it from them. I mean, I’m still going to like the Andrew Watt
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thing and the the Soundwave thing yesterday and just learning an
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incredible um amount. I mean that’s one of the things this conference is so energizing for me and I’ve been doing
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this for a long time. Yeah. Uh but you know I I think it’s a real lesson and don’t don’t be so concerned
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about what somebody’s motivation is. Just be concerned about your wanting to
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get the information and being open to it. I think on the flip side um I know
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for myself uh when I go into a studio with a young like say you know whatever
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assistant engineer or whoever the first thing that I want to know or basically
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lay down the groundwork is don’t tell me you know something that you don’t know.
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Oh that’s the worst. Yeah that’s the worst. Like cuz I there’s so much I don’t know.
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And that you know I mean that’s kind of the the piece of the pie, right? They say that when you become wise, you
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realize that the slice of the pie of what you don’t know is so much smaller than the piece of the pie of what you do
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know. And all that gives you opportunity to learn. But like I’ll ask an assistant engineer sometimes like, you know, can
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you plug something into an insert or whatever? And then I just see them lurched over the patchbay like just, you
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know, time just gets wet. All air has sucked out of the room as that person is like
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looking for the insert point or whatever that they don’t know where it is. And I’m just
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I have to go, you don’t know where that is, do you? And and then they’re trying to cover. And I learned really early on
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because I as Daniel said and as a lot of us, you know, we our mentors and the
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people that taught us were they were forgiving but unforgiving. The one thing they wouldn’t put up with me was that
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thing which is when I was covering for my lack of intelligence about something. And it wasn’t that I didn’t want to
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know, I just didn’t know. So the way you learn is by by admitting that you don’t know. But it’s how you carry yourself in
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that. It’s a big piece of this business is like I got to give someone security in
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the fact that they’re at the end of the day they’re gonna get a result. You know, and Susie knows this better than
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anybody. You don’t get called a producer cuz you are like you don’t produce
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anything, you know. Yeah. No, for sure. You have to produce something and you’re you’re a songwriter when you write a
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song, not because you want to write a song and then you call yourself a songwriter. And that’s a great place to
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come from to be the aspiring. And it’s funny because before I was a producer, I
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created a production company literally called Desiring
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Productions. I’d give them my card and I was and Tony
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knows me from this. I was a roadie and and I as a roadie I bec I got off the road and I got, you know, into the
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studios and I then was working as an engineer but I wanted to produce and I was desiring production. I was desiring
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producing. So, I created a business card called Desiring Productions because I was desiring productions.
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And they’d look at this and they’d laugh and they go, “Is this for real?” I’m like, “Well, yeah, cuz I’m desiring
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productions.” And so, and that carries a lot of cred because then people are
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like, “Wow, this guy is actually desiring productions. Maybe we’ll let him produce us.”
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So, so, so Ross, in that case, where do we stand now with your production company called Hoax Productions?
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Well, and this that’s that’s true. And then I want to hear Susie talk and and and more Kathleen, but that was because
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my last name is Hogarth. I come from New York. When you come from New York, you get a nickname. If you if you’ve actually given yourself the nickname,
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it doesn’t work. You can’t give yourself your own nickname. So, when I was coming up at, you know, growing up in New York
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and playing sports and stuff, I was first I was hokey, but that wasn’t they
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my friends didn’t love that one. And then like a hogy is a sandwich. So you
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can’t call someone hogy. And they didn’t really dig calling me hogy because we eat hogies and that’s not and I ended up
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being hoax. H O K E S and uh or hogs. And when I became when I started my
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other my production company I have now production I thought was kind of a hoax. If you don’t have a song and you don’t
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have an artist, it’s like a double entandra. What are you producing? It’s sort of a hoax. So I just as a nick as
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as like a nickname from my nickname, it was called Hoax Productions and we won’t get political, but that word has been
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over misused now and everything is a hoax and I almost shut it down because
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of that. But yeah, cuz it bums me out. But uh we won’t go there. We’ll just say
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that I am uh very political and um and it it does but
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so uh yeah, if you look at my Facebook, you’ll see. But otherwise uh we’re not going there today. Um, but I do have an
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opinion. Chops about the name because Yeah. And it is it’s it’s a it’s a double on Tandra because it what if if you don’t have an artist and you don’t
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have a song? I’m I’m going to make something. Yeah. But I don’t know what I’m making. But yeah, for sure.
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Well, you’ve been pretty good at that so far. I keep doing it regardless. Like it’s not going to stop me. And two, I’m like
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more thinking about the word no. And we talked about this, but I took this improv class, you guys, and it like you
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learn the foundation is you say yes and, right? So if someone has an idea, if
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someone wants you to come to the studio, if someone wants to do this, you say, “Yeah, I can do that.” And this and you like build on it and there’s an exercise
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saying no and like see how fast that session ends. See how fast you hurt the
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artist’s ego. See how how fast your career grows. It won’t it will it’s it’s a hard it’s a hard thing. It’s a deal
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killer. Um and then to Ross’s point, I mean, when I was an intern, someone was like, “Can you engineer the session?”
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And I was like, “Yes.” And I was like, “I don’t know how to do this.” And I [ __ ] up the vocals like so bad.
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The artist was screaming at the studio owner outside of the studio and I could
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just hear it. And I was just like I like distorted the vocals so bad. I had no idea how to actually use a compressor
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despite the amount of school I went to. But um I never messed up a compressor again.
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That was my last time of [ __ ] it up. So in in that case like I yeah I said yeah and I [ __ ] bombed it but then
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like I learned a lesson you know like the the yes so
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I think we’ve all heard stories about you know oh they got your break because they went out to lunch and they they did
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another mix or whatever in my experience you get fired when you do that I I
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Yeah producer usually does not appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and that’s the thing. Well,
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that’s the difference there between trying to fake it versus actually asking for some help and then using your
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intuition a little bit to actually make it work. Yeah. And maybe you’re in in a role
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where you can hire an engineer or hire an assistant or like maybe you have a a
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good network of friends where you can storm text them be like, “How did you do this? What did you do here?” And they just they want to help and they’re like,
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“I did this.” No. And just I would answer the same questions if I can help anyone too. Like
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I’d like a lifeline please. Yeah. A constant lifeline. And it’s also very powerful too. I’ll just throw this out there because I I I
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started my career by saying yes to everything to everything. And and and it worked.
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Like literally there was so little of me to go around cuz I was spread so thin.
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And I did that up to a point where finally, and I’ll just say there came a point where as a father with a family,
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starting to say no became really important to not say no when I meant or
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not say yes when I meant no. Yeah. And and actually not fill up the cup so
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full that there’s no nothing left. But that took time for me to get there. and
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in a very specific way. It was like my kid was little and Fogerty was wanting to work on Halloween, which we got
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coming up. And it and I had given away so many Thanksgivings and Christmases and Halloweens and all these things to
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to not to I was like, I’m not giving away a Halloween. I’m only going to get 10 of these maybe with my one kid or 11
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maybe. So, I’m not going to work on Halloween. I told him, “No, I don’t work on it.” and he was like upset at me and
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I explained to him I said I’m only going to get 10 of these in in the life just let’s think back 10 days it’s like a
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blink of your eye let alone 10 years and he actually respected that and I gained
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more respect out of the relationship but in you know so there’s this balance I think when we live in black and whites
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we get really screwed up because there’s a gray area to all this stuff you know and and then there’s that thing which is
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like when you say yes and you don’t know it you’re going to have to figure it out But, you know, and I I just remember
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being asked to mix the first record I ever mixed and you know, they say, “Well, you ever mixed a record?” And I
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go, “Oh, yeah.” And then it was like, “Well, I trust my ears. That’s what I trust. I trust my ability to do this.”
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And then that’s what made the difference because in the end, what is our most valuable asset, you know, besides our
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intuition and other such, you know, some of metaphysical things? It’s our ears. So, you have to trust something. And I
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trust I’ve trusted my ears basically my whole career. I just say the speakers
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never lie. The room lies. Everybody lies. Tries to convince each other something’s good or whatever. But man,
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if you close your eyes and push play, the speakers never lie. Really, unless they’re really bad speakers. No.
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Can I say something about um we’re talking about being given an opportunity and saying yes. But I think the things
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that we’re most scared of is when we make the opportunity for ourselves. And that’s a bigger jump than saying yes to
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something that someone asks you to do. Yeah. And I’m pretty sure everybody in this room, I don’t know what kind of advice
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you got from your parents, but working in music is um you know, most parents are kind of trying to steer you somewhere else.
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And I I think that just I I counsel a lot. We have a great internship program
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at my studio and I have these conversations more than most people about people being afraid, people
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wanting to take a jump. And one thing that uh people moving to Los Angeles to try to make a career happen and I know
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now you can have your a studio of your own anywhere and and I do give a talk about owning and operating your own
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studio um at like a business but um what I have said most often is that if
27:38
you’re a big fish in a little pond, you might be a big fish in the big pond too and you owe it to yourself to find out.
27:44
So, if you’re a young person starting out, um I always tell them to do the scariest thing that they want to do
27:49
first, you know, um and and see if you really want to do that or not. You might not want to, you know, people get in and
27:56
they find out how many hours they have to work. Um that nobody else wants to go home. Um you know,
28:01
Yeah. Yeah. that there is no other life. You know, not everybody wants to do that. They will. Yeah. But but you know now
28:08
you’re talking about trusting your ears, Ross, but there’s also I think and and
28:13
all of us are kind of living proof of that trusting your ability to figure things out. You know, we’re all as
28:20
artists, we’re all autodidactic to a certain point, you know, and every
28:27
single one of us has had to word. I was saying big word moment. Big word selftaught. Big word moment.
28:32
Big word. Big word alert. We’re all self-taught and we all figure things out
28:38
by figuring it out basically by by I mean either you know before we had the
28:44
interwebs we still had to figure things out and yes sometimes it was calling a
28:50
friend sometimes it was going to the library remember those um you know but
28:55
whatever it was it was you know I mean I I’m grateful that I have as many friends as I do because I can call almost
29:03
anybody body for almost anything if I don’t know something. But that’s really I mean isn’t that what it’s all about is
29:10
you know we call it networking now. Before we called it networking we just called it like you know calling a friend
29:16
asking somebody. See I got to admit what I don’t know. I had to look it up. Autodidactic. [Laughter]
29:24
Okay. I’m a word nerd. I’m sorry. Self-taught person. I guess I’m autodidactic.
29:30
See you just you just demonstrated. I feel so I feel so completely autodidactic right now.
29:36
See that? Look at that. Leslie, you just talked about being autodidactic.
29:41
Did you guys know you were so autodidactic? Okay. Okay. No. No. Seriously, how many
29:46
people in this room did not know that word? I just want to see. Okay. Well, see that you have now come away from
29:53
here with some knowledge that you didn’t have before. Autodidact. So, we’re not really selftaught. The
29:59
dictionary just taught us. What is that? How does that fit in?
30:05
I just don’t know. But but really seriously, you know, I think the whole idea of being of having
30:10
a little bit of confidence in yourself to say, okay, you know, I don’t know what the hell I’m doing, but I’m going
30:16
to figure it out. Yeah. Isn’t that Isn’t that kind of the part and parcel of how we got where we are?
30:23
Yeah, absolutely. Big yes. Just shut everybody up. gone.
30:29
That was that was the moment where it’s not really a no, but we all said yes,
30:34
but there on the end. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
30:39
Yeah. Yeah. Question. Just an observation because the story you just told, excuse me, is
30:46
you want to use You want you use the mic there? Step to the mic. Step up to the microphone even though
30:52
it’s not officially Q&A time or anything. Oh, we love cute. We like cutes. Okay, be quick. So,
30:57
just to kind of point out something that was that just happened that I observed is we’re all talking about never say no.
31:04
And then Susie, you talked about the story where you messed up the mix on the vocals, which is the thing that is in
31:12
the back of all of our minds. My worst fear. Exactly. Yep. And I imagine we’ve all experienced
31:19
had that kind of experience at different parts of our lives and our careers. So it’s it’s finding that balance
31:25
between knowing when to say yes, go to the party and when to say no because
31:31
you’re not at your best. And that’s I have a I have a personal motto. Start
31:37
ugly but start, you know. And I mean I I do a podcast.
31:44
I just dropped episode 188. I cannot tell you.
31:49
Thank you. I cannot tell you how scared shitless I was to do the first one and
31:56
the first 10, you know, and then I would want I mean, even now I look back at the
32:01
first 10 that I did and I’m like, “Oh [ __ ] did I say that? Oh my god.” You know what? you know, and because I’ve
32:08
learned over time how to be a better host, a better interviewer,
32:15
when to shut up, things like that. And I’m still learning, and we’re all still
32:20
learning. I mean, isn’t that that’s the theme here, too? We’re all still learning. And
32:27
so there’s there’s this quote um that I usually like mess it up, but it is
32:34
somewhat tattooed behind my eyelids, but I put it on my phone a while back to use
32:40
it because it’s one of the greatest quotes about what commitment because
32:45
that’s the thing that for me when I do say yes to something then I’m allin. I’m
32:52
fully committed. until I say yes, there’s that.
32:58
And this quote just dials it right in and it’s so much better than I can actually say it. And I’m just going to
33:04
read it. It says, “Until one is committed, there’s always hesitancy,
33:10
the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness concerning all acts of initiative and
33:16
creation. There’s one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless
33:21
ideas and splendid plans that the moment one definitely commits oneself then
33:27
providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred.
33:33
A whole stream of events issues from the decision raising to one’s favor all
33:38
manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance which no one could have dreamed would have
33:44
come their way. Whatever you can do or dream, you can begin it. Boldness has
33:50
genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it now. Yeah, I like that.
33:58
So that moment of commitment for me is when I, you know, get off the hesitancy,
34:03
the chance to blame someone, draw back ineffectiveness. I can’t blame anyone now but myself. And it’s that thing that
34:10
then we I think we all know that moment when we do commit regardless of whether we know it or not or they have enough
34:17
songs to make the record or I I know this piece of gear or whatever. I’m
34:22
going to figure it out because I’m so committed. And then when I don’t get to like the finish line the way I want it,
34:29
I go back to the beginning and look at who I was, the guy that started. Because
34:34
if the guy that started it was a little offc center or something, then I got to take a look at that. And in the end,
34:41
it’s just the doing of it that’s kind of the one of the crucial things for me. But getting that commitment is what I
34:47
was is like the mission statement or something for the way I might, you know, and and and that that quote has been
34:53
sort of the win behind me in a good long bunch of time because it’s uh and it’s by a guy named Good to Ge T.
35:02
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s you know once you step out on that diving platform, are
35:08
you going to climb back down or are you going to take that jump? Basically, you got a question.
35:15
Oh, yes. Hello. My name is S. Um follow-up
35:21
question about the sort of worst fear coming true.
35:27
You just want horror stories, right? Well, no. I’m wondering the recovery like if you can speak to kind of how you
35:34
recovered from that. Um I I’ve heard this story of like uh you
35:40
know pro skateboarders, pro athletes, you fall off the skateboard, you get a concussion, you’re in the hospital, you got to get back on the skateboard the
35:46
next day. So I was in the studio the next day probably engineering something else and fixing something. It’s just
35:52
like it never occurred to me being like I’m scarred. I’m I’m stuck in frozen mode. I can’t ever do this again. And it
35:58
was just like, “No, I don’t know what else to do.” So, I’m back at the session the next day like or back at this or
36:05
like doing some kind of other work related like I just I [ __ ] up really bad and I kept going and you know talked
36:12
to the studio owner at the time and they would make sure it wasn’t ever going to get messed up again. And like I learned
36:18
my lesson too. But it’s like if you if you let that like I think like scar you
36:24
and prohibit you then then you’re you’re stuck in that like that not growing
36:29
phase where it’s just like okay what like break it down in small steps of like what did I [ __ ] up? How did I [ __ ]
36:35
up? How can I not [ __ ] it up? Can I ask someone? Can I talk to people? And like two, like just I think this it makes it
36:43
easier to say yes when you just break it down like small like okay yes I blew up
36:49
the entire session but like oh I see I had the input too hot on the compressor.
36:54
What is the compressor? Whoa. Oh okay. I I see like I’ll always take the
37:00
compressor out and check the the gain structure like the gain first. Like you know like there you just like broke down
37:07
this you blew up the session. you ruined everyone every and you’re just like okay here’s a couple here’s what I here’s where I went
37:12
here’s how I learned about gain structure so yeah and it’s just like
37:18
and same with like as Kathleen said like go moving to LA maybe it’s really terrifying and scary maybe you’re just
37:23
like I’m going to sublet a place for like 30 days maybe I’ll just start there maybe I’m not packing up my whole life
37:30
and starting over maybe I’m just going to the summer the this like that I think
37:36
can get you out of that like yes and little starts. Oh, you’re going to you want to write a song? You’re not going
37:41
to write the greatest song of all time today. Like you need to put under that pressure. Maybe you just start playing guitar in front of the computer.
37:49
That’s something that I work with um a lot of my neurodiversity sessions on. It’s the idea of just break it down to
37:56
it’s called being present in the moment. You know, it’s it’s awareness of like maybe I’m not going to write a song
38:02
today. Maybe I’m just going to sit down at the piano and listen to the timber of
38:07
this one note or, you know, just play around with one synth patch or something like that just to do something. Because
38:16
if I don’t put those pressures on myself that I have to write a song today, then
38:21
maybe I’m going to write that song because I’m not pushing myself to reach that goal. Yeah. And same with Oh, I can never [ __ ]
38:28
up again. I I erased a vocal on my first session. Okay. I’m here to tell you and I was
38:34
terrified to walk into the studio the next day. I mean this was my first session at
38:39
Cherokee Studios. Okay. So I mean I was like the second engineer and I really
38:45
[ __ ] up major big time and I walked in the next day expecting to be fired and I
38:51
wasn’t. If you design plugins, Suz’s open to that vocal sound in the future if you’re
38:57
just, you know. Right. Right. Exactly. Her preset. It’s it’s it’s there if you
39:02
Yeah, exactly. Overdrive. Exactly. I love it. It’s It’s now It’s art.
39:08
It’s now really cool. Yeah, it’s cool. You know, I’ve I’ve heard it on records. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.
39:13
Yeah. Saf Safari plugins.
39:18
I mean, if if we have any I mean, I’m happy to open it to Q&A if you know. I mean, bring it.
39:24
Come on. We got a line there. Bring it on. I I kind of want to get to the root of the observation um from earlier and what
39:31
I’ve been thinking about because we’ve heard both, you know, say yes to things and take opportunities and figure it out
39:37
along the way, but also don’t say yes to things you don’t know how to do or make it seem like you know how to do something that you don’t know how to do.
39:43
Where is how do you find that middle ground of accepting opportunities and figuring it out versus not saying yes
39:49
when you don’t know how to do something? being humble and saying yes, I’ll say yes, but
39:55
Leslie, she’s bring it on. Please.
40:00
Well, you’re you’re right. There is a a fine line between that and um you know
40:07
when I uh this was of course many years ago um and I was uh an um assistant at
40:17
uh Capitol Studios and many of us who were assistants there would go back and forth between being assistants and being
40:24
engineers and being assistants and being engineers and of course you learn a lot of humility doing that. you learn to um
40:32
kind of be the best at what you can in the position that you’re in in in that
40:38
day and not wish you were doing something else. Um uh and and I and I I
40:46
learned then this was when syncing digital machines and analog machines
40:51
were happening. I I I kept a cheat sheet literally about how to plug things in,
40:58
what to look for because it wouldn’t happen every single day. It might happen once a week. It might
41:05
happen once a month. And to have to learn how to do that, relearn it every
41:11
time. I just had to keep this cheat sheet so that I would understand the uh proper
41:18
steps. It was around when MIDI first became really popular and composers were doing that and I realized, you know, I
41:25
don’t need to know MIDI to do my job as an engineer. I could hire somebody if I
41:31
were producing something, I could always hire somebody to do MIDI. I I don’t need to learn that um in order to be
41:39
effective in in my job. So, I think I think part of that is understanding what
41:45
what your limitations are. the fact that you don’t have to know everything that there are other people around who can do
41:52
that. uh and um uh and and and and so
41:58
there’s there is that fine fine line and I think you have to determine that yourself and know what you think you can
42:06
learn more about in order to do what somebody’s asked you to and and what you
42:12
um realize you really either can’t do or it’s just not going to be a part of what you need to do um in the future. I think
42:20
only you can really um decide that. Uh nobody can really tell you what that
42:27
fine line is for all of us. It’s been different. Um but you know those are just kind of some examples from my um
42:35
experience. And I think to your point it’s different at different times you know.
42:41
Oh totally. I mean you know I’m producing opera records now. I mean,
42:46
right, if you had told me 10 years ago that I would be doing this, I I would have
42:52
thought you were crazy. But again, I’m self-taught. And there is something
43:00
um and um Andrew Wyatt was saying that this earlier today when he was talking
43:06
about working with somebody like Paul McCartney, you have to assume that
43:12
you’re bringing something and someone is asking you to do something because they think you can do it. And there’s a lot
43:19
of a certain amount of comfort in in that. I see Susie nodding her her her
43:24
her head that there’s a certain amount of comfort in someone asking you to do something because either they want to
43:32
spend that time with you because it’s very intense in the studio. They think you can do it. They just uh it doesn’t
43:40
really matter why but they have that confidence in you. And I think that you have to take that as um the fear that
43:49
comes with that. Oh my god, I have to produce an opera record, you know, and
43:54
um knowing that that they want you to do that. They want to be with you. They
44:00
think you can do that. The fact that you don’t think you can really is immaterial at that point. You
44:07
know, you just h have to figure that that out. So I think um a lot of it
44:12
comes to from who asks you and who has the confidence in you and then really
44:18
kind of having that confidence in yourself. Thank you so much.
44:26
Hello. Uh I’m Jay Kersh. I’m with QSC and so I just wanted to point a couple things out. It’s uh if you’re working in
44:32
the creative field like like we do doing music and and entertainment and that includes all of STEM for that matter. If
44:39
you work in science or technology or engineering or mathematics, all of those uh require learning. And if you already
44:46
know how to do all the stuff that you’re doing, then you probably have a very boring job. So, it’s always good to have
44:51
a job and have requirements where you have to learn something. Otherwise, you can find someone much cheaper that just
44:57
already knows how to do this particular task. And then for a personal for me in
45:02
my career, I’ve been doing product development for uh uh over 25 years now. But if you were to go to each one of the
45:08
jobs I’ve had and go two years in uh from starting that job and take the
45:13
stuff that I’m working on and then take that back two years to my job interview and ask me those questions. Do you know
45:19
how to do this and I would say no. It’s like, you know, it’s just part of part of your job to figure that stuff out and
45:25
learn that stuff. Well, to your point, you know, everything we do is this mix of left
45:30
brain, right brain. That’s that’s part of what we do. I mean, we’re we’re using technology to
45:36
create art. So, every single one of us is has to be sort of torn between those two modes, I
45:44
think. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a good point. Hi, thank you so much for being here.
45:50
Um, my question is about how to how to balance working with people who are
45:56
really creative and then also being able to make money. I’ve recently discovered that my very favorite I know the
46:03
question everyone wants answered, but I’ll ask it cuz we’re here and why not? Um, you know, I’ve discovered recently
46:10
that my very favorite thing to do is to find and work with artists who are insanely talented but don’t necessarily
46:16
have a lot of money. And the way Sorry, I know how you start, Ethan.
46:22
Yeah. Um, but you know, I I have been, you know, balancing working with some
46:28
paid clients and then also all these people who I just want to develop. I was wondering if any of you had some
46:34
insights on navigating that cuz literally it’s been the past two weeks, an incredible past two weeks of working
46:40
with insane artists who are incredibly talented and saying yes to everything. Um, but you know, I’m trying to figure
46:47
out how to sort of worm my way into making some money and then also keep developing these artists and keep going
46:53
forward with that. So, if any of you have ideas on how to do that, that is that the story of all of our lives. I
46:59
was going to say it made me think of Penelopey Spirus, the director who made the Rugrats movie so she could do
47:05
Decline of Western Civilization, you know, but you basically you make money on some crap and then you um you know
47:12
the really talented people um you I guess you get a piece of it, right? You you develop them.
47:17
Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. I mean, I I’ll just say, um, if you’re in it, if you guys are here to
47:26
try to answer your question and you’re here for the money, um, you’re in the wrong place.
47:32
You just are. I think so. In general, most people doing what we do are
47:39
actually overqualified to do what we do and but we’ve chose
47:44
made the choice to do it. And and I know this is going to be controversial, but I
47:50
don’t want to be a guy that reaches underneath the hood and pulls out the spark plug wires so that I make myself
47:56
more important when I know how to put them back in. Oh my god. So,
48:02
you know, touche. I I I I like the fact that on a lot of levels I know that and this is
48:08
hum I’m saying this with full humility even though I don’t get to wear the t-shirt that says I’m so [ __ ] humble
48:14
but I do believe in humility because humility is when not when I think um
48:21
less of myself. It’s when I think of myself less. And the reason I do what I
48:27
do because Susie on this stage here she’s actually an artist. She writes
48:32
songs, she plays. She’s the She is the only artist. I mean, I’m a different kind of artist. She’s a actual artist.
48:40
We are all in our own way. So, and to to you know, to add to what you know, we
48:45
bring something to the table. I bring something to the table. And I know that. So, it’s not when I think less of
48:51
myself, it’s when I think of myself less. And I love the service part of this gig. I always use the term
48:57
overpaid. I am so overpaid. And it has nothing to do with money. I’ve done some
49:03
pretty [ __ ] crazy jobs in my life. If you’ve ever roofed or ever had to carry
49:09
um you know bricks or any other job other than being in a really nice studio
49:15
or a decent studio that’s aironditioned with artists, we’re going to be better
49:21
be grateful for what you’re doing. Cuz if you’re not grateful for something by noon and you’re looking at how much
49:27
little you have in your cup, pour it into a smaller cup and stop bitching about it because we are so overpaid. So
49:35
I do this cuz I love it. That’s the bottom line. And I love the challenge,
49:40
too. Even though I say I’m overqualified, give me an artist that is challenging, it’s it’s awesome to come
49:46
out the other side with something. So if you’re in it for the money, I recommend
49:51
do something for money and and uh they’re saying 10 minutes. So that’s my
49:58
answer to your question is I don’t have the answer to your question because I don’t look at it from that way. I look
50:04
at it like I find I’m always going to find a way to pay my bills one way or
50:09
another because I only have an A plan. I don’t have a B plan and I’ve never had a B plan because I’m completely committed
50:16
to what I’m doing. And if it comes a point where someone doesn’t want to hire me and I got nothing to bring to the
50:21
table, I’ll find something else to do because I my attitude is like I am overpaid in life today. And and that’s
50:27
the way I live to be completely frank and honest about it because this is the greatest freaking thing to do is to be
50:34
in a studio recording music or mixing music or being around creative people cuz they’re generally as like Jackson
50:42
Brown’s the hardest person on himself I’ve ever worked with. But he’s one of the kindest, sweetest humans as a human.
50:49
And he’s the guy that wrote the lyric, “Don’t confront me with my failures. I haven’t forgotten them.” He wrote it at
50:55
19 years old. So, we get to work with those kinds of people. Yeah. And uh and so that, you know, for me,
51:01
that’s my my, you know, you know, mic drop on that for me. I’m just happy to be here. And I always say too, in the music
51:08
industry, like if you have a backup plan, if your parents wants you to go get the real estate license, go to law.
51:15
This is the music industry. It is going to be so brutal and terrible and awful that that backup plan is going to look
51:22
so nice. So, as Ross is saying, as everyone say, you can’t have a backup plan. And for like, yeah, you want to
51:28
have a livable wage and work. It’s like, okay, like maybe you have to go get a job as a waitress. I did it. Like, maybe
51:35
you have to figure out what sync music is. Can you get sync fees? Can you do this? Like, you you never say, “I can’t
51:41
do this.” You figure out a way. How am I going to do this? Okay, this happened. What am I going to How am I going to afford this now? How can I keep staying
51:48
in LA? How can I do this? I I’m I’m curious. These creative people
51:53
that you want to work with that you don’t get paid for, uh what is it about them that you want? Why is it you want
52:01
to work with them? Uh I I sort of like enter this flow state
52:07
with the people who I work with. I work so much better when I’m working with someone. And if I have someone else in the room, I can create a beat in half an
52:14
hour and then record them and put it all together and then walk down the street to the studio and record them and have a
52:21
full song in, you know, 5 10 hours depending on how fast they work and how fast I’m working. And it is one of the
52:27
most rewarding things I have ever done. It is so much fun to see an idea come from just something in their head that
52:33
they had or some inkling that I had or some reference that they gave me that they’re like, I want to make something like this.
52:39
Okay. So, so then um who are the people that are paying you?
52:44
Uh I have just um a bunch of people who I
52:49
meet or uh get referred to or you know um people who who have more money that I
52:56
have just met who I know like can pay it aren’t necessarily always as rewarding
53:02
to work with, but at least they’re, you know, paying the bills. Um and it’s still in the studio even. It is still in the studio. So, I I I
53:09
don’t um I guess I would uh try to encourage you
53:17
to I mean, look, I’ve worked on tons of vanity projects, people that come in that that had just have a lot of money
53:24
and really don’t have much talent. And um but my responsibility to them is
53:30
the same as somebody who has tons of talent and uh has mortgaged their house
53:36
to come into the studio. Mhm. Everybody gets treated with the same
53:41
respect to me whether I’m being paid a lot of money or a little money. And what
53:49
is I think more encouraging to me with those people that um perhaps don’t have
53:56
the talent is what I can how I can help them. And and so I think if there are
54:03
people that are are paying you money that you owe them the um
54:12
uh everything you can possibly give them. If if you are over here not
54:18
getting much money or any money and creating beats and just loving it and all of that, then why then you it would
54:25
be my advice to you to try and take that um uh that creativity and that love for
54:33
music and quickness and apply that to the people that that are paying you because those are the people that are
54:39
probably gonna call you again. Mhm. The guy you’re making a beat with or the girl you’re making a beat with that that
54:46
is so transitory that’s going to last for a second. But the lifelong clients that you have
54:53
that you can actually I can’t tell you how many producers I’ve worked with who are called producers who don’t know
54:59
[ __ ] And even though I’m self-taught, I know when something’s sharp or flat. I
55:05
know when somebody’s playing the wrong chord. I know when the beat’s off. I know enough and I know enough to lean
55:12
over and tell this guy who doesn’t know anything, hey, you know, you might want
55:17
to tell them to redo that again because and then he gets, you know, you might want to redo this again, you know, I
55:24
mean, but that’s life. Yeah. And so I would just encourage you to the
55:30
people that are paying you, give them the same amount of respect that you’re giving the people that aren’t paying you. And I think that will um enable you
55:39
to then work with the people that aren’t paying you and be able to afford to do that and develop that R&D and learn
55:46
something from that and bring that back to the people that are paying you. I’m going to just her tip that she gave
55:52
is actually I’m going to say it again so you hear it again. Even if it’s my idea and I’m not
56:00
the producer and you’re the and she’s the producer when I give her that idea because she’s the producer. Often the
56:06
producer it’s or the artist. If you’re producing an artist, it becomes their idea. If you have the if you have the
56:13
facility to have the artist believe that your ideas are their ideas, that’s when
56:19
you really become like the winner. like you get to like Vulcan mindmeld those
56:25
things by you know and and and they and they and and they’re never going to thank you for it but they will continue
56:31
to want to work with you because they they love your ideas even though they’re their ideas.
56:37
I I I I would also say in in that instance that that that has um happened
56:42
to me I ended up being a co-producer after that because they recognized the
56:48
um the contribution I was giving. Now, not everybody’s going to do that, but the clients that I work with appreciated
56:55
my input enough to make me co-producer on those records, and those ended up being some very uh big records, and and
57:02
I was extremely happy to to have been uh uh credited like that.
57:08
Can I add just one more thing? Um just one word. Gratitude. M
57:15
we are all so fortunate to be able to be in this business to be able to create
57:21
something. I mean, okay, we’re not curing cancer here, but we’re all so fortunate to have spent most of our
57:28
entire lives working in the arts, doing something we love. I get up every
57:34
morning and I’m [ __ ] grateful for the fact that I get to work with as many talented people as I do. And no, I don’t
57:42
always get to do what I want and I don’t always get to work with the artists that I want to work with. But even those
57:48
people who are, you know, as as Leslie pointed out, you know, those people who you feel may not be the people you want
57:55
to work with, they’re coming to you and they’re giving you their trust. Man,
58:02
gratitude. That’s all I can say. You know, we are so lucky. We have this one other question. So, yeah. Um, hi. Thank you for being here
58:09
and and helping us through this group therapy session. Yes. You want to talk about it?
58:15
I am I am fortunate and that I very rarely have any doubts in my ability to do a job, but my biggest enemy is when
58:21
somebody’s like, “Hey, I have a number of somebody you need to talk to. This is a big important re-recording mixer or this is somebody who you need to get to
58:27
know. Give them a call.” And I’m just like so terrified that I’m gonna make a bad impression or that I’ll be boring or
58:33
awkward in conversation. And I’m I’m just wondering how I get over that and just open my doors and and talk to
58:39
people like that. Can I give you the title of this panel one more time?
58:44
You may do it. Pick up the [ __ ] phone and just call and say, “Hi, my name is
58:51
soando and I got your number from soandso.” And I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve done that. Almost
58:58
all the people up on this panel right here I met by doing that. Well, and you know what? you you call up
59:03
and you say, “Hey, you you have something you want to ask them about, you know, engage them instead saying, I’m this and I’m that and I’m this and
59:09
I’m that.” You know, you call up and you’re you’re engaging and everybody wants to offer their wisdom or their
59:16
input. She has a finger up one. I’m going to take 20 seconds. I’ll just say you
59:21
never take Oh, it’s going to be short. It’s going to be short. Never take a job interview. Only take meetings when I
59:30
meet somebody. Interesting. Yeah, if I sit with someone, I’m going to learn something. Every single time I sit, any one of you
59:35
guys, if we sat and had a cup of coffee, we’ll learn something. But if it’s a job interview, there’s condescension.
59:41
There’s a hierarchy and and then there becomes this thing where it’s like, I want something that you have and that
59:47
and great point. Don’t take job interviews. It doesn’t mean don’t go meet people, but just turn
59:53
them into meetings and because those expectations. Yeah. And call, send a text, be like, I
59:59
admire your work so much. I’m such a fan. Like I would love to could I come over to your studio? Could I take you out for coffee or something? I’ve I’ve
1:00:06
tech Tony Berg I hit up that way. I was over at Rob Kavalo’s studio that way and I was just like, “Oh my god.” And you
1:00:11
know, but there’s there’s a fine line, but it’s just like you got to if it’s too scary, send a text, whatever. What
1:00:17
have you to do? Yeah. You got to take I said I’m going to let’s have Hey, let’s meet up. You wouldn’t that wouldn’t worry you, right? But
1:00:23
wouldn’t at all. No. Yeah. But the the whole thing about the job interview and the No job interview just be like, “Can I
1:00:28
can I come over to this? Can I come meet you sometime? Can I take you to coffee? Mhm. Yeah. Cool. Cool. Well, thank you.
1:00:36
First of all, thank you to my panel
1:00:43
and and thank you all of you for coming and for being here and for being a great
1:00:48
audience. Thank you guys. Thank you. And thank them.
1:00:53
Thank you, Daniel. Hey guys. Thank you.
1:01:01
Hey, I’m Daniel Keller. Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button and join us each week for Insights and Sound