Insights In Sound 192 – David Morgan, Live Sound Pro – Live at AES Convention S20 E2

Welcome to Insights and Sound, where we talk to the people behind the scenes, behind the technology, and behind the
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music. People you may not know, but you should. And please check out insights and
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Mojave Audio, Ozbot. Let’s give you a formal introduction
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since it’s I I guess we’re kind of officially starting here.
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Yes. Okay. So, uh my name is Daniel Liston Keller. I’m chair of the Audio Engineering Society Los Angeles. And uh
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we are here today with the illustrious Mr. David Morgan whose um live sound
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mixing career dates back about half a century or so. um last month or 46 years at front of house
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and um we’re going to talk a little bit. We’re we’re really honestly David and I have known each other for many many
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years and so we have not really prepared anything and we’re just going to essentially just have some anecdotal
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conversations here about u about mixing live sound and um how it’s been over the
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years, how it’s evolved, how your career has evolved. And I think I’d like to just start out
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with a little bit of background because um like um like like many of us in the
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industry, you originally came into this with dreams of being a rock star.
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Absolutely. Uh I started playing uh professionally or
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uh when I was about 14. Uh I was a guitar player and singer. Uh my first
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paying gig was a junior high school dance with me and another guy and we did Kingston Trio songs and Buddy Holly
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songs and Everly Brothers songs and we made uh I think we made 20 bucks.
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Uh that’s big money. Uh I stayed with it after that. Uh I I
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kind of found found myself in live performance. Uh I really it really
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taught me who I am and uh who I could be. And I wish I’d been more prepared.
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There there’s a wonderful picture from 1973 of of me playing guitar for one of
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the most prominent reggae bands uh one of the inventors of the medium reggae uh
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as guitar player for Tits and the Metals and that was a lot of fun. Uh, I was with other bands that were had we grazed
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record companies. Uh, and I kept getting closer and closer, but it
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kept falling apart at the end. So, after uh three or four failed ventures of of
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of becoming a successful rock musician, uh, I decided it was time to look in
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another direction. and I started really studying and uh managed to land a job as
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a staff engineer at a major recording studio here in LA. And that was kind of
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a springboard as far as that career went. But I didn’t know that
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uh A2s staff engineers at at recording studios
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in in the 1970s, we got paid dirt. I mean, you got paid 400 a week at the was was good, right?
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Uh and and we were we were told that the only way a staff engineer can make any
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money is if you bring in a client and uh I didn’t have those kind of connections.
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Uh I had good connections in East LA, but uh I was I started had had started
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doing uh live sound for a band called Elchano, which is a big band here in LA in the 70s.
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uh was kind of our version of Santana, the Los Angeles version of Santana. And so I I with me it’s all been learned by
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doing. Uh you know, I I learned how to mix on at bars. Uh I was a uh one of the
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the the two guys who did sound out at a famous country western club in North
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Hollywood called the Palamino. Uh, I made 50 bucks a night out there and uh,
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so I was gradually working my way up through the club levels and I got a big break. Uh, somebody handed me a business
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card, like the way I mixed, said, “Go see my boss.” And in 1978, I walked in
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the front door of a company called A1 Audio that was uh, owned and operated by a gentleman named Al Siniscal. and Al
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took a chance on me and uh that experience resulted in me uh becoming a
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house guy in 1979 and it all just as soon as I put the
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guitar down things just seemed to come together, you know. I got the got the job at ABC Records, got the job at Ellen
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Sense Recording, got the job at A1 Audio, got the job at the Palamino. Uh I
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I mixed George Jones, you know, I I did Merl Haggard one night. I did uh Vern
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Gosden. I did I did it was a who’s who. Willie brought his own guys. Uh Whan
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brought his own guys. But uh you know I’m in still in the presence of all these guys. And luckily somebody handed
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me that business card and it changed my life completely. So now you’ve one of the things that I
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think is interesting is the diversity of artists that you’ve mixed. I mean,
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mixing Whitney Houston takes a completely different skill set than mixing Whan Jennings, than mixing James
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Taylor, you know. Um, how do you adapt to these different
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situations when you all of a sudden you find yourself on a completely different gig? I I had just come from five years of
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running a sound company, which was happened totally by accident. And and if
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we want to go into that story, I want to get into that story. But uh
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I uh I was general manager and then managing partner at at at Schubert
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Systems Group, a major audio company in in North Hollywood. And uh I had just
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been bought out, which was fine by me because Yeah. You were not happy in the job as I
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understand. I mean, yeah. I I watched all the tours go out and I’m not going with them, you know. Uh I got to do the
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still I still got to stay with the Doobie Brothers, which is You were live sound adjacent. Yeah. I got to do Mike McDonald’s first
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two solo tours, but that’s pretty and and I did a lot of work with Kenny Loggins in 1984, but that’s pretty much
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all all I got to do was it was pretty much local stuff. And you know, I I
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watched my my my partner go out on world tours with Toto and stuff and you know,
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I I was I was I was I wanted to get back to that life. Uh I liked being a mixer.
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I liked uh I like the road lifestyle and and it was uh something I I didn’t know
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how much I wanted to get back to until I got the call to go and mix Whitney
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Houston’s first solo tour. And
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the I I really had no experience mixing a a
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a a soul show. Right. Luckily, the musical
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director, John Simmons, who was a wonderful, wonderful man, God rest his soul, uh he was Denise Williams, a
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musical director and uh and was on Broadway with The Liz, right? And John
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told me this wonderful thing. as as as when I first got the job, he said, “Mixing this show, what you want
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to keep in mind is what is the instrumentation that you hear in a commonly in in in a in a in a most black
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churches?” And I had to think for a minute and I said, “Well, I know there’s a piano and I know there’s usually a
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bass guitar and is there a drum set?” And he said, “No, snare drum, maybe a
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high hat.” Right. Yeah. No kick. And so he said, There’s the cornerstone of your mix
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right there. And I adhered to that and and uh it worked out great. I did her
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first three tours. I had a ball. Uh I had stayed with her, but she went and did uh the Bodyguard movie. And uh
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didn’t get back to touring until the uh I was with her in ‘ 86, 87, and 88. And
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she didn’t get back to touring until early 90s. And by that time, uh, I’d
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gone to work for Paul Simon and I wasn’t coming back. So, I stayed
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with Paul for 21 years. Now, you did some really memorable gigs with Paul and and the thing about those
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gigs also is that his musical arrangements and his whole musicality
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really evolved from like kind of folky to, you know, world beat to, I mean, completely different instrumentation.
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again, you know, you and that’s the thing I think, you know, if there’s a recurring theme here, it’s the fact that
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you’ve had to really evolve your mixing style and your mixing pallet over and
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over and over again. Paul. I I I got the job with Paul soon
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after the Grayson album came out and that of course was predominantly African
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and uh yeah it was it was it was having to learn how to mix all over again
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and different instruments. I mean instruments that are not common very much so concerts
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uh even down to the percussion. Isaac Asante used to play with these hooked
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uh metal tubes with little doors stopper uh ends on them uh rubber ends on them.
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and he’d play the drums like this and they sounded great but they were kind of quiet you know because they they and so
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uh to get that out front while everything else was going on uh you can imagine that the the den that was being
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made playing like the Can or Diamonds on the Souls of Her shoes uh to get Isaac’s
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drums up you know it was it was uh a whole different frequency ranges I was
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trying to uh to to to to leave in a lot of stuff that I would normally take out
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of I found that I had to leave it in in order to get any definition out of, you know, when he’s playing
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the drums with these funny little sticks, the curved sticks. And uh then we had another percussionist who hit
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real hard. He he mainly comes up Francis Fooster and he hit real hard. And so
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that that big contrast between the two of them. Yeah. And it was uh
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it was a three and a half hour show. Uh it it featured mainly Paul Simon, but we
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also had a a four song set from Humasa. We had a four song set from Miam Maba.
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We had a a three song set from Lady Smith Black Mombazo. And this is all within the show.
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Uh the show was three and a half hours long. And I swear to you, it seemed like 10 minutes after after
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House Lights. I mean, it just went by like that. And it was so much fun. There was so much joy being created on the
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stage. Uh Graceand’s a pretty joyful record, you know. Uh and it’s uh it was a really uplifting
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experience to be to be part of the creative process to put that that that show on the road. That was uh
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we worked in 80 uh first shows were in ‘ 87. We rehearsed
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December 86 and January 86 and I think we hit the road uh first week of
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February in ‘ 87. And we we did shows until the spring of 1989.
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Uh and the world loved those shows and I I loved being part of them.
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You know, I remember um during a particular phase of this um I was I was
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doing artist relations stuff for sure microphones and you were one of our guinea pigs
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because you always came up with these you know I have to mic up you know whatever it was it was something oddball and we’ you know we’d always like hey
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have you tried this you know and and so you were like one of the first people all the time when there was like a new microphone it was like yeah give it to
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Morgan. Yeah. You know, uh, luckily I had a good friend, Harold Bloomberg, who
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who was a consultant at SH and they would hand me stuff. Uh, now
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one of the first things that Harold handed me was four of the old original SM98s, if any of you
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remember, little tiny condenser mics. Yeah. Uh, is a mini condenser. It sounded great. Sounded big and fat. Uh,
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I put them on the four toms. I used to love them on toms. And and the thing about them also is they had a
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polar adapter that would make hyperc cardioid. So it was very good for
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stages with a lot of leakage essentially. A guy posted a uh the advertisement that
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the the print ad that I did for shore in 1987 about how I mic drums which is
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about the SM87. And there there’s a uh a Facebook page
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that that uh chronicles uh live sound in the past
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that that they put that ad up and so people people had a lot a lot of good things to say about the 87.
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Mhm. It was uh it was nice to see it become so popular which meant that that Shore
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would hand me other mics along down the line, you know. So I had a wonderful
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relationship with Shore and with Daniel and we Daniel Daniel was our European guy for a long time and uh we uh
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I was a beta tester for uh and consultant for KSM9,
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KSM8 uh KSM32 uh
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and in fact a funny story about KSM32 because I remember that uh one of their
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engineers came over and uh you were the person we were bringing it to. And this
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guy came over with, I kid you not, an até case handcuffed to his wrist
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because there was no way that this microphone was getting out of his hands and it was going directly from the plane
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to me to David. So yeah, he was our guy,
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you know, and and part of that was really the fact that we knew that when
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you were trying stuff out, the the the thing about David’s mixes, and I I I
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have to give I have to praise you here for this, is that in every single context, whether it was Whitney Houston,
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whether it was Paul Simon, whether it was James Taylor, you could walk into a hall, did not matter the size of the
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hall, did not matter really any kind of venue at all. And you could literally
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pick out every single instrument. You could practically pick out every string of each guitar. And I think that’s one
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of the things that was really unique about the way you mixed was that everything was really very very clear.
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There wasn’t a lot of mud. There wasn’t a lot of of blur. And I don’t know how the hell you did it, but pretty amazing.
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I learned early on how to clear out and make make make space for each particular
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sound. Uh that’s you just you study frequencies uh what masks what what what
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what combines with what what you know it’s uh
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it it takes study but it it it’s something if you do it diligently uh
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you’ll end up with far better separation you know if you create an own little frequency space for each instrument. Uh
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but also my philosophy in mixing isn’t from the PA out, it’s from the building
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in. Uh what I’m trying to do with the output of the sound system is invite you
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on stage. Right? A lot of shows, and God knows there’s a there there’s a place
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for this, but I it’s not the kind of bands that I mix. A lot of shows want a n to the back wall with a kick drum,
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right? or or or with volume, you know, I’m trying to do it the other way. I’m trying to seduce you into coming on the
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stage. And this this comes from my experience of of playing in bands. And
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the most fun I ever had would have playing in a band was when it was just a rehearsal room. We didn’t have a big PA.
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We might have had, you know, something to hear vocals with and we’re just playing ourselves in the room. Well,
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that’s what I’m trying to do for for everyone in the audience. I’m trying to bring you on the stage and give you that experience of being on stage with the
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musicians and having the instruments sound what just like they sound and having uh the balances be the natural
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balances between instruments. Uh but also the separation that you get by
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especially if you sit up in a circle, you know. Uh so that that’s always been my goal. It’s it it’s always been a uh
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uh I judge my success on on on on how intimate I can make a large building
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sound. You know, if if if I can turn a 20,000 seat arena into a small club,
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then I’ve really done my job well. Which comes down to really a skill that
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I think is kind of lacking here, which is the ability to really listen.
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Well, I I I I think I started really listening
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the the the the first time Elvis Presley was on on Ed Sullivan in 1956. I think
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that that’s when I kind of decided I was going to be in the music business. Uh I
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did start uh piano lessons at at six years old. Uh then I had another four
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years of playing the saxophone. So, I mean, I studied music and that then I
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picked up the guitar and by the time I was in high school, I was teaching guitar at the local Welssley Music Center in the town I grew up in outside
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of Boston. And uh it’s it’s
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uh musical reproduction or musical production of sound has been my entire life, my entire life. So, it’s uh I’ve
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never really done anything else for a living. I’ve had other stupid jobs. I mean, in between bands and in Boston, I
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used to deliver pastry at for a local French bakery because I could go to work at 4 in the morning and be done by 7.
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Then I’d sleep all day and get up and play four sets at the club and then go to work at 2 in the morning at the uh at
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the French bakery. Uh but that wasn’t a job. That was working with Maurice, the
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the wonderful French chef. He uh for breakfast we’d have we’d have cocoa and
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we’d have he’d make wonderful stews. TV. It was uh you know that was it was just
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another fantasy experience. It was a I had I I had one in between bands job
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that that that I don’t wish on anyone. I I I thought it was a smart idea to go deliver furniture.
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Oh, bad idea. Bad idea. Don’t no wasn’t going to. That lasted about three months
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and it was I said I’m gonna kill my hands. Gonna press your last that long. And so it it it was well I was young. I
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was, you know, early 20s. Uh, I was strong enough to do it. Uh, but I, you know, I realized I was going
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to destroy my hands and so, you know, time to get in another band.
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So, I want to talk a little bit about technology because that is something that has really
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evolved dramatically over the time that you’ve been working. You know, when you
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when you first came in, most systems were really there were no systems. It
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was cobbled together components from various manufacturers. And a lot of times it wasn’t even manufacturers. It
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was just, you know, we’re going to build a speaker cabinet kind of stuff. And we’ve evolved from that to eventually we
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evolved to manufacturers creating systems, line arrays, etc. And then we
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evolved from that to entire ecosystems,orked ecosystems,
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stewarded arrays, arrays that are capable of creating a kick drum that can
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rattle your mers, right? You know, how has that affected
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your work?
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I think the the most uh
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clear demarcation line would would be the advent of the the the the vertical line array. Uh thank you Christian
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Hiles, Jeff Cox. Uh the uh Eloustic took
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took took the world by storm. Uh the other sound companies came along kicking
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and screaming. Uh uh I know Claire steadfastly refused to
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buy a VOS system uh saying we build our
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own. Uh you know the S4 was a pretty formidable box and I mixed some of the
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best shows of my life on CLA S4s. Uh but
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that started happening what 1996 is that about right Mark?
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Uh and by the year 2000
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everyone had converted to line arrays. It it it happened very very quickly. Uh
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well it was an economical solution. It was pragmatic in that sense that you had to cover the space. Yeah. Everything
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about it took less people to put it up. It took less stage hand labor to put it
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up. Uh and so that that that was really the probably the the the greatest
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single development in in our business that uh separates one era from another.
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Uh we’re still in the vertical line of radio era. So obviously it’s it’s it’s worked well,
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but we have beam steering now as well. Uh yes. Yes, we do.
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For better or worse, there are very varying opinions on on on on
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uh that sort of digital manipulation. Mhm. Uh I I I have not experienced uh that
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sort of a system like like like uh well like the EAWS or the Rinkas Hinds or
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things like that. Yeah. Uhhuh. Uh so my uh ability to comment on that is
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is is limited. Uh I do uh keep in touch with with with
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with Robert Scoville all the time and uh and Robert’s working on and he’s been doing in the sphere. So
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that’s that that’s that’s a whole other level. Kenny Chzn and the sphere. Uh
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oh, the hollow plot thing. I mean I interviewed Robert on that a few months ago. Yeah, that that that that that’s that is
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a whole different mixing skill. uh dealing with a uh a distributed system
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like that is a completely different skill. Mhm. Uh one for which I don’t know if I would be perfectly suited. Uh but it’s it’s
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had I were I 25 years younger uh I I would be
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uh studying that that that that way of mixing. And but now that I’m 76 and I’ve
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officially retired from the road, uh for me it’s more of a curiosity than than
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than than something that that I’m driven to to understand. But my younger friend
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Robert tells me that it’s the way it’s going to all go very soon. uh and I’m I
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I respect his opinion and uh I just see
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more and more computer control coming into the business and that’s really not the way I do it. I’ve mixed in an analog
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way in the digital world. Uh I I’ I’ve been lucky enough to experience the in
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in my 60 odd years in the music business. uh I’ve experienced every
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level of digital product as it got introduced into the market. So uh it was
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easy for me to assimilate bit by bit every year and eventually when it came
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time to to make the jump over to digital I was really happy to do it and I was
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excited about doing it and I embraced it completely. Uh, I used to carry big old
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racks of uh of tube compressors and a whole lot of uh outboard mic pres to to
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to to warm up my old PM 4000, my Yamaha PM4000. Uh, and when we when we moved into the
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uh Digi Design Venue systems, I junked the whole thing. I went completely in
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the box and because it was a challenge, I wanted to see if I could do it. Did you feel that that I mean I I know that
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that transition was difficult for a lot of people especially because the the science wasn’t quite there initially. I
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mean were you one of those people that jumped in right away or did you did you wait until it was
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I waited a year. That’s not long. They they released uh the the venue console
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the big the big venue console the D show in uh 2005. Uhhuh. and I switched over to the
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profile had just come out, the smaller version of the console. Uh I switched over to that and I think it was February
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of 2007. So I let a year go by. It’s like the same thing I do with a car. Let the
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first model of the year go by, you know. So uh or you know Apple operating system
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wait until there’s you know a few revisions before you Oh yeah, exactly. Uh, so but when I went
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in, I went all the way in and luckily I was doing a show with James Taylor that
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was the tour was called One Man Band and it was James and one other guy, our
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keyboard player Larry Goldings. And uh, so I had this wonderful opportunity to
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uh, slide in with a very low input count show.
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Right. Uh-huh. So, uh it was uh I had the opportunity to to
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uh and we would do multiple multiple days in the show. So, I had the opportunity to listen to all the plugins
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all at the time. Uh the venue console provided you access to to quite a few
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ProTools plugins. And so, I had a chance to audition them all. And I’m always
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when I I listen to anything, I I I always have a purpose in mind. I mean, is this going to work for what what I
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want to do? I’m not just listening to it just to listen to it. Uh, obviously, if
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something is an emulation of a of a piece of analog gear, I’m going to compare it in my mind to the analog
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gear. But, uh, in general, it’s it’s like I want something to to affect, uh,
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the the low end of the piano in in a certain way. Uh, and then uh
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so it doesn’t matter what the what what the plugin is called. It only matters if it works, right? Uh, and you know, it it
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might say it’s an LA2A and it might not sound anything like an LA2A, but if it gives you Yeah. If it gives you a
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certain characteristic that that I’m searching for, I’ll use it. I might not use it in the in in the the classic way
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that that one would on on vocals and things like that with with an 1176 behind it, but uh this was the early
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days of of ProTools plugins and and and uh
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they had uh they had enough that that that I could I
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could put together a really good solid show on on the venue console for this
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twoman presentation. Uh, from that summer, we went back out with a
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full band and so I had to create a a full band show show file and that that was that was uh that was
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really exciting. I I was hooked by that. So, let me ask you there’s another thing
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that um that uh I’ve talked about with Robert Scoville a lot in terms of the
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adaptation to digital which was the concept of virtual soundchecking. being able to record your show and then
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essentially you never have to do a sound check again with a live band because you can play back your tracks from last
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night. It depends on who the live band is. Now I the the people I work for, Paul Simon
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will re will rehearse for as long as you let him, right? Uh
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we were famous for doing two and a half hour soundchecks that were basically rehearsals. Uh
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James wants to play. Everybody in that band wants wants to play. Uh and uh we
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have a lot of fun at soundcheck with James. Uh Midler always wanted wanted to
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soundcheck live. So while the option was there, the artist
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tell me, you know, so uh in in in in my travels, I spent 21 years
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with Paul Simon. I I I spent 17 years with B Midler and the last 21 years with
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James Taylor. Uh sandwiched in there somewhere was 15 years with Lionel and
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about 12 years with Steelely Dan and Fleetwood Mac and uh Stevie Nicks with
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about 12 years for both of those experiences. So uh every one of those
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bands wants to soundcheck live. So I never got to use virtual soundcheck. Well, I’m sure it was a wonderful,
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wonderful tool. I car instead I carry a pair of tanoise uh old old T12s
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uh studio monitors and I play the stuff back for me, right? And did it help you?
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And it helps me. Yeah, because that’s the other thing I’m wondering is if you’re recording a set like that, does it help you later on in
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an empty hall, let’s say, or wherever to tweak your sounds less under pressure?
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try out new plugins without the band standing there waiting, you know, that kind of thing. Well, that’s what that’s what the near
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fields are for. And I don’t have them on during the show. That I take them down before the show.
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Uh but I I use them quite quite quite often in the afternoon. You know, once the PA’s up and flying, if I have an
31:31
extra hour, I’ll I’ll experiment with stuff. Uh, and but
31:38
uh I’ve never really tried to EQ the PA based on uh the previous night’s show. I
31:44
mean I I don’t know if uh I don’t know if I trust myself that much that I mean there are some people who do
31:51
that and you know I mean obviously um one of the things that I’ve talked to a number of traveling engineers about is
31:59
that they actually have a sound file for venues that they’ve played more than once. Mhm. you know, here’s my Carnegie Halls
32:05
file, here’s my, you know, whatever it is. And and I think that, you know, it’s probably useful for that if you’re on
32:12
the same gig for 20 years, as you say, you know. Yeah, we we we we kept an archive of LIO
32:20
files for the that that run the all the processors for CLA. Um,
32:26
sometimes it works. Uhhuh. But you know, you have all the other variables. You have temperature, you have humidity, you have
32:32
I want to talk about humidity. Yeah, humidity is a big one. And I think a lot of people don’t realize how much
32:39
humidity impacts the the sound, you know, and not just humidity the weather-wise, but even the humidity of
32:45
getting 90,000 bodies in a room, you know, more water, more highs. Yeah. You know. Mhm. Uh so if you have a a a temperature
32:54
change accompanied by a uh a a humidity
33:00
change, if it’s a big swing, then your entire PA is going to sound different from the way you EQ it in the afternoon.
33:06
Yeah. So you’re on a different fix that on the fly. Yeah. And that’s that’s I think part of the
33:13
adaptability that one has to have in doing live sound versus being a studio
33:18
person. Uh yeah, I mean going back to our friend Robert again, he he had a small weather
33:25
station out at uh at at at the sphere. Yes, we have a running joke about that
33:31
weather guy. The atmosphere changes so much. Uh when it’s full of people versus when
33:37
it’s empty, uh that that he he found that that he might have as you know a 6
33:43
to8 dB difference in his high frequency output. So I mean that that that that’s rather significant. So,
33:49
and it changes things. Especially, you know, the further back in the hall you go, the sound’s going to be much much
33:55
different than what you sound checked. Well, it it it
34:02
uh I’ve always been a, you know, seat of the pants biplane
34:08
flyer, you know. Uh I I do everything uh in an analog way, even in the digital
34:14
world. And uh it’s uh
34:22
it’s it’s what I use walk-in music for, you know. Uh now I’ll start out real quiet
34:30
on walk-in music because I work for artists that have tend to have older audiences. Uh but as I as I ramp it up
34:37
closer to showtime, you know, I’ll probably bring it up about 10 dB. Uhhuh. And by then I can actually hear what’s
34:43
coming out of the PA. And I’ll I’ll do a a real fast walk around. Uh I’ll I’ll
34:48
I’ll go if it’s after the hole’s filled in. Yeah. If if I’m in the lower bowl, I’ll
34:53
go go up to the top of the top. If I’m on on the floor, I’ll go at the top of the lower bowl and
35:00
as far back behind me as I as I can get and to still be able to get back to the front of house uh and see exactly what’s
35:09
happening and what uh what
35:14
there used to be some marinas that with a metal quansen hut roof where the in in
35:21
the middle of the summer it would get so hot inside it would rain. It had it its own atmosphere. So that that that that’s
35:28
your extreme humidity example. There was a place called the Cape Cod Coliseum down in Hyannis, Massachusetts. Was just
35:35
a metal quanet hut. And there was a place down in Hollywood, Florida called the the Sportiatorum. Uh that somehow
35:43
used to be called the Snortitorium. Oh. Uh and it uh that that that had the same
35:49
thing. It developed its own weather system. So if if you wanted to see the rise in humidity uh with the as the
35:56
crowd filled in those those were the two best examples in the country. It’s a real phenomenon and you got to watch
36:02
your high end. True that. Now, I want to go back to the the whole concept of gear a little bit
36:08
more because again, one of the things that you and I have talked about is the idea of um
36:16
and this is a problem that that I think I’ve seen with a lot of modern sound systems because we now have the ability
36:23
to really create the kick drum from God, you know, and I’ve seen I’ve been to
36:31
concerts where, you know, I’ve got acoustic instruments on stage and I can’t hear because all I’ve got going on
36:38
is kick drum. And I think that’s that’s another thing that you and I have had
36:44
this conversation about the whole idea of finding that balance where we have this capability now to really drive that
36:50
low end and sometimes it tends to get abused a little bit.
36:56
Uh I’m I’m often astounded at the number of subs that are are deployed at an
37:01
average concert, but that’s I don’t work for those bands. Uh and and I
37:07
consciously chose not to work for loud bands. Uh I had one opportunity when
37:12
when David Lee Roth uh left or was removed from from Van Halen.
37:19
uh uh uh was called in to to to mix his
37:24
rehearsals right right here at Long Beach Arena of all things. Uh we’re at the scene of the crime and uh he wanted
37:33
me to mix it so loud that I was getting physically ill. Uh and so I told the
37:38
production manager that I will not be doing this tour. You’re going to have to find somebody else to do it. I I value
37:44
my my hearing and I value my health. I can’t do it. Uh, so I’m I’m not only am
37:50
I artistically opposed to a big kick drum, I’m physically opposed to it. I don’t like the feeling of being hit in
37:56
the solar plexus. I just don’t like it. Uh, I uh, one of my quirks is I’m I’m
38:03
I’m frightened by loud noises. So, that’s kind of Well, an odd quirk to have being a front
38:09
of house engineer. I I I have others that go along with it, you know, that we just we discussed in
38:14
the podcast. I’m claustrophobic, which doesn’t help when you’re on the bus and you’re in a in a
38:21
and and and don’t like being around a lot of people and I don’t like crowds. So, I get I get I get nervous in crowds.
38:29
So, I was not constantly. So, you’re really cut out for this work. I was absolutely the wrong personality
38:35
for my job except in one way artistically. I knew how to make things
38:42
do this, you know. Uh, and still you could still see these,
38:47
you know. Yeah. And so I I I kind of described my job the way John Cles did in Montipython of
38:54
with the society of for putting things on top of other things. And that’s pretty much what I do. Uh,
39:01
yeah. You stack sounds basically. That’s And if I do it the right way, as you
39:06
said, you can hear every instrument. It speaks clearly and it speaks in in in the way that instrument should speak.
39:13
And it creates a a a really safe and and and and happy listening environment. And
39:20
that comes from as much from my phobias as it does from my art, you know. Uh I I
39:28
need the safe space for my myself as well. And you know,
39:35
uh, I found my way into a job that was absolutely perfect for me. Uh, because
39:43
once I’m behind the bike racks at front of house, I wipe out the crowd. Uh, I
39:49
don’t scare myself with incredibly loud noises out of the PA. and and and
39:55
uh when everything’s right and I’m being surrounded by by by by
40:03
uh the performance that’s coming from the stage and it really it does you know
40:11
create uh its its own little uh emotional environment uh and that’s
40:18
really my happy place. Uh, I used to, uh, I used to dance my way through all
40:24
the shows. My, my my name in the 70s, 80s, and 90s was Dancing Dave Morgan.
40:30
Uh, and I get really involved. I had little choreographed moves, uh, which
40:36
was especially helpful when we were working on a long analog console. You know, I would have to dance down to this
40:42
end here, do this, and then I dance down here and and do something on Gad’s drums. He’s booging across the console and
40:49
everything. Then then I’ll then I’ll conduct you know and then then you know
40:54
there’s these there’s all sorts of little little gestures I’ll try to you know
40:59
elicit something out of the PA you know I’ll try to drag it out you know while I’m while I’m pushing a fader I’m doing
41:05
this you know and it’s uh it’s I get really physically involved in the mixing
41:10
process as well as emotionally and and and spiritually and artistically involved. Uh, it’s been the most
41:17
fulfilling life I could possibly imagine. Uh, you guys got any questions? I’m talking my all all the uh
41:25
Yeah, we’re going to open it to Q&A in about a minute or two here. But but I I I did want to I I did want to reiterate
41:33
your point there. you know there’s there is a you know to my mind people are coming to
41:40
a concert to have an experience you know and even even in the days when you only
41:46
paid five bucks for a ticket let alone now when you’re paying 500 or more for a ticket you’re going there for an
41:51
experience and I think one of the things that um that you have elicited is this
42:00
understanding of bringing that experience it’s not just a performance, there’s really an experience for the
42:06
audience. And as a performer, what do you want? You want your audience to
42:12
really have this memorable experience. And the front of house mixer is so vital
42:19
to that chain. You know, you’re the connection between the people up on the
42:25
stage and the audience. And if you’re not doing your job right, people are going to have a shady time, you know,
42:31
and and so I think being really being really conscious of that, being really conscious of the idea of I’m not just
42:39
reproducing sound here. I’m I’m reprod I’m basically channeling an experience
42:45
from the artist. Absolutely. I I I really try to be as as clear a window as I can possibly be for
42:52
the uh taking the performance off the stage and putting it out through the PA.
42:58
Uh it’s uh
43:06
most important for me to understand that the the the the the
43:12
audience is probably knows more about the the recorded history of the artist than I do. Uh and there’s a certain
43:21
expectation that that they they have from living and loving what the the the the
43:29
artist’s output at at home. And so I have to fulfill that expectation, but I
43:35
also have to make it a little larger than life. I have to make it uh the
43:41
memorable moments even more memorable. So I I I have to slightly exaggerate
43:48
things, you know, that like the TomToms in in in in
43:53
uh uh say diamonds on the soles of her shoes, right? But don’t bump, you know,
43:59
those those I get those right out front. So a little bit of that it a little bit
44:04
just a little bit plus adding a lot of the the nonlinear off the off the AMS reverb. Right. So, it’s it’s this cool
44:12
sound and it jumps right out at you. Uh, you know, it’s uh
44:18
there are certain parameters that that that that that I can enhance and there are certain parameters that I can’t and
44:24
I I’ve learned the boundary, you know, and so it’s it’s it’s
44:31
I want people to hear what made them love the artist in the first place, but I also want them to
44:37
come back and buy another ticket. So, I want to make it a little more exciting than it is uh uh on on the recorded
44:46
versions. Uh James Taylor Live, I don’t know if any of you guys have seen James
44:51
Taylor live, but it’s one of the best shows you could ever possibly go to. Not
44:56
uh he that band is absolutely immaculate. I mean, we started,
45:04
just as an aside, I’ve been lucky enough to to have spent 37 straight years mixing drums for Steve Gad. So, uh, I’m
45:11
kind of spoiled as far as drummers go. Uh, but not only do we have dad drumming
45:16
for for James, we have Jimmy Johnson playing the bass. We have Michael Landal playing the guitar. We have Luis Ki is
45:22
the is the percussionist. We have Lou Marini is the Blue Lou from the Blues
45:27
Brothers plays Sachs, you know, Saturday Night Live band. Uh, Walt Fowler from
45:33
the Fowler Brothers used to be Frank Zappa’s band. It’s a whole bunch of amateurs basically. It’s just the craziest band, you know.
45:41
And when I worked for for for Paul in the in in the 80s and 90s, everybody
45:47
said we had the best live performing band. Well, since I went to work for James Taylor, I know for sure that James
45:54
Taylor has the best live performing band I’ve ever I’ve ever mixed. And
45:59
I mean, I jokingly say say this, uh, you
46:04
know, what’s the secret of my success? My secret my success is to work for kick-ass artists. you know, the ones no
46:11
one work for the best people you can possibly find. Uh, I’ve been incredibly
46:16
fortunate in in in the people who have chosen me to mix their shows and uh hopefully I’ve been
46:25
able to fulfill that confidence and and and and send people home happy because
46:30
that’s like I said, that’s the game. I’m not mixing just for this show. I’m mixing for you to buy a ticket and come
46:37
back so we can go back on tour next year. Right. I’m an advertisement for James Taylor. Uh I’m an advertisement
46:43
for Paul Simon. I I take that role as very very seriously and uh I don’t try
46:50
to infuse an awful lot of my personality into the mix. I
46:56
infuse my per my interpretation but I don’t infuse my personality.
47:02
um the person the music is its own personality and it’s up for me to discover what exactly that is and it’s
47:11
uh the bands I do there’s so much nuance that I have to
47:19
study real hard and I I I like it when I have a long time in rehearsal uh where I
47:25
can choreograph my moves to each one of the songs so I know which fader has to
47:30
go up when because I don’t automate anything. Uh I I I mix on a digital
47:37
board as if I were mixing on an analog board. Uh
47:42
I take that back. I did snapshot Fleetwood Mac because we had a lot lot of changes between song uh
47:49
instrumentation and singers and things like that. Uh you know, one it’d be Stevie one song, it’d be Chris the next
47:54
it be anyway. Uh so I snapshotted that. Uh when I did
48:04
Graceand and all all the all the early Paul Simon stuff, I had uh all of my digital
48:12
effects MIDI together. I had a little controller keyboard uh over on this side
48:18
of the console that I just hit whatever MIDI number it was from 00 one to one
48:25
seven. Right. And uh so I had my little box
48:30
here and I did different reverbs and and delay settings and and and anything else
48:37
that could be MIDI together for every single song. Uh because there were so many effects that that Roy How did in
48:44
the studio that we wanted to reproduce live. And uh so for a long time while I was
48:53
working for Paul for most of my work uh I this is how I I
48:59
I set it up. Everything was different for every song. The wonderful thing about James Taylor
49:05
is that I have two vocal reverbs.
49:11
You know that’s it. Yeah. It’s clean. I have one one On the bass, I have one
49:18
one bank is okay, we’re outdoors and I can use a little more reverb. And the other one is okay, we’re indoors and I
49:24
can use a little less reverb. Uh the reverb on the background vocals doesn’t change. Reverb on the acoustic
49:32
guitars doesn’t change. Not because this band that plays with James Taylor
49:38
creates all the textures I could by themselves that I could ever ever yearn for. And so these last 21 years, I’ve
49:45
been able to go from being an incredibly busy mixer, you know, with things changing on every single song to
49:52
basically kind of a static mixer. And and so that gives me the opportunity to
49:58
bring out so many different flavors when I’m not worrying about, you know, what am I going to do with my hands in
50:04
between songs and things like that. So, uh, I look at James Taylor as kind of a
50:09
reward reward at the end of my career. And this is this been the greatest job.
50:15
I can’t tell you. He’s the most wonderful man to work for in the world. And that that band is stellar.
50:21
Absolutely stellar. If you’ve never seen James, I would recommend it. My assistant took over for me. He’d been
50:27
with me for six years. I gave him my show file. He’s he’s running the show
50:32
exactly the way it has been. I got to actually sit and at one show and listen
50:38
to my mix mixed by another guy. That was weird. That was really kind of weird.
50:45
It’s like seeing somebody living in your old house or something. Exactly. You know, uh Toby Keith had a
50:50
song, Who is this man running my life? Right. Uh and that’s that’s kind of what
50:57
it was. But I uh my assistant Thomas is incredibly talented and I love him to
51:03
death and I’m so happy that he succeeded and uh but he had the he had the the
51:09
intelligence to just keep the show as it is. Uh and that keeps uh Rachel, our
51:17
monitor engineer, that keeps her show exactly the way it is. Uh we have a band that that that that is older, kind of
51:25
set in their ways. they don’t want to deal with a lot of change. So Thomas, even though he’s in his mid30s, had had
51:32
the brains to realize that the smartest way to get this job and keep it is to keep running the show that has been a
51:37
success for the last 21 years. So uh so we have I think about seven or eight
51:44
minutes and we do have a microphone there. So I want to open it up to any Q&A, anybody that wants to ask any
51:51
questions of David before we wrap.
51:56
Now everybody’s just running away instead. Yeah. Hi. Hi. Uh I wanted to know so
52:02
since it’s something you were doing for such a long time throughout your life, uh how did you find balancing being on
52:08
the road with maybe anything that was going on in your personal life? Badly.
52:13
Uh uh
52:19
I miss I missed my son growing up. Uh my wife did an incredible job of
52:24
raising him. Uh he’s he’s a a beautiful man. He married a beautiful woman and
52:30
they’re uh my wife and I might be grandparents soon. We couldn’t be happier about it.
52:37
Uh they’re they’re working on it. Uh uh
52:44
the wonderful thing about kids is they’re really resilient, but what what’s what’s normal for them is normal,
52:50
right? So, dad traveling was normal for my son and he he got to come to a lot of cool pretty cool places. You know, if
52:59
uh you know, if you were, you know, five or six year old kid and you got to sit on Steve Gad’s lap
53:06
through an entire soundtrack, you’d be pretty jazzed, right? One another time Paul said, uh
53:15
I guess he was about seven at this time, he said, “Sack, come up here.” He was he
53:20
was out in front of the house with me. He said, “Z, come up here.” So he had Zach sit right on on the floor right
53:28
next to his his wedges. So he be just slightly behind him so we wouldn’t hear him. Uh and he he had he sat there the
53:36
entire sound check. Paul loved him. Bet Midler loved him. I mean, he he he’s uh
53:43
you know, when he comes to visit me on James Taylor, if if if we’re at at
53:49
coming into catering after soundcheck, if James sees my son, he will get up and run across the room and to hug my son,
53:56
which is pretty cool. Jame and my son and uh and and James’s son Henry get
54:01
along really well. They’re they’re both the same size. They’re about six foot five. Uh, and
54:07
uh, it’s it’s it’s just, you know, I have the regrets, right? I wanted I I
54:15
would love to have had more experience while he was growing up. Uh, but,
54:21
uh, my wife found a really fulfilling job within the school system and so she got to she got to be home when he was
54:27
home all the time and, uh, she worked with, uh, special needs kids for 22
54:34
years. the school system in Thousand Oaks. And so things have a way of working out. Uh we’re still married.
54:43
Well, it’ll be 43 years in November 27th. Woman has the patience of the saint.
54:49
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But, you know, had she had a different personality, I wouldn’t have blamed her
54:54
for telling me to go, you know, screw you. Stay on the bus. Yeah. Don’t come home.
55:00
Okay. We have a couple more questions behind. Sure. Mhm. And this this might sound elementary,
55:06
but as someone who’s getting into mixing and trying to become a better listener and had a long career where you only get
55:12
better by becoming a better listener, I’m curious to know a couple of things. One, what are some really great things
55:20
that you’ve learned over the years about how to become a better listener? What are things that you may done in your
55:25
time as a listener to to hone that skill? And the second is what do you think was the most difficult
55:32
uh part of mixing it of listening? It could be a frequency, an instrument, something that you really feel.
55:41
Uh the hardest instruments to make sound natural and good is a piano with the lid
55:48
closed. Think about it. Uh, I spent a lot of time developing a
55:56
microphone system to make the piano with a lid lid closed sound good. Uh,
56:04
that that that’s been that and making an acoustic guitar sound like an acoustic
56:09
guitar and not a banjo. Uh, because, you know, the output from a PZO pickup isn’t
56:15
all that great. Uh, luckily I had a a friend named Peter Janice who owned a
56:20
company called Radial and he built a a preamp for James Taylor’s guitars. Uh,
56:26
which he ended up selling as the PZ pre and when you bought one of those PZ pres
56:33
uh you my picture was on the box. It was embarrassing.
56:38
Uh, but there it was. Uh so uh th those are the two instruments that are are
56:44
they’re really the most difficult to make sound natural and what was the
56:50
first part first part was just in your in listening how have you become a better listener
56:55
there something is there a mental dexterity that you developed that you can share with us about listening
57:02
what I tell every front of house person is your first mixing uh assignment
57:10
is to not mix. What I want you to do is go go find a place on the stage
57:16
where you can hear every instrument clearly. Sit there for an entire rehearsal.
57:22
Don’t turn the console on the first day. Spend your entire day on the stage with
57:29
the band so you know what they think they sound like. So that that that to me is is is one of the most crucial things
57:37
is instead of, you know, because as soon as you get behind the desk, you’re going
57:42
to go into old habits, right? If you spend the the first day not
57:49
mixing, just listening, then you’ll hear
57:55
which old habits are going to work and and and and where you have to go blaze a new trail. So that that that that’s my
58:02
greatest tip is is actually listen to the band, you know, see what they think they sound like.
58:09
We have one more minute. So one more question. All right. really quick. Um you
58:15
mentioned uh masking earlier and just uh really saying for understanding um what
58:23
we what in man um so I’m just curious
58:29
particular method or resources books or just something like that. just
58:35
to see what the damage are so that I have an understand what
58:41
well there there there there’s two areas that are are are most uh
58:52
uh common is as as far as disguising sounds from other instruments lower
58:58
mid-range is a always a problem right uh
59:04
in in in in vocals, you want to clear out in the 160 to 240 range, you know, just
59:11
just to get some of that chesty stuff. This stuff here, you know, that stuff there. Uh I mean, it it
59:19
uh the the in in high frequencies that the
59:25
the 3k range is is is really good at smashing everything else around it as well. Uh it’s uh
59:34
You can hear it as you p as you pan through an equalizer, right? Uh I I I I
59:39
tend to when I’m EQing stuff, I tend to do it on the on the near fields, right?
59:45
So I can really put like a 10 dB boost on something in a parametric band and and and and and actually sweep through
59:52
it and find out where where it’s killing something else, right? It’s uh you don’t
59:57
want to do that through the PA because that hurts people. But, you know, if you have if you have the luxury of having
1:00:02
airfields or if you if you if you have a smaller PA in front of you, uh you you can do that. I I I I do that when I’m
1:00:10
EQing the PA as well. I mean, I I’ll take very narrow uh queue and and and
1:00:17
sweep through things and and see where the room actually starts talking to you. So, uh, it’s,
1:00:24
uh, there’s a certain amount of familiarity that you get through repetition, but I’d
1:00:31
say the two the the the two most uh difficult areas are in in in that lower
1:00:38
mid-range area that that that that almost every single instrument shares,
1:00:43
right? from vocals to to to to guitars to to keyboards, you know. Uh and and
1:00:51
that the area around 3K uh tends tends to you lose
1:00:59
articulation if there’s too much splatter in that area. Right? So you want to carve out little little niches
1:01:05
in in in in uh in in which you can deposit. You know, a
1:01:12
violin can go here. Its close relative an acoustic guitar can go here, right?
1:01:18
And so it it it’s all what can you take out yet maintaining the character of the
1:01:24
instrument. Uh equalization is all about subtraction. It’s not about addition.
1:01:29
And so it’s uh my my old mentor Brian Englesby said
1:01:36
EQing is isn’t about, you know, pushing up what you like. It’s taking out what you hate.
1:01:42
Right. And that’s that that stayed with me my whole life. And the other advice he gave me is when you’re doing uh
1:01:48
reverb returns, turn it up until you can hear it and then turn it down 3dB.
1:01:54
Those that’s kind of the basis of my career, those two pieces of advice. I love it. Okay. Well, I’m I’m sorry, but we’re
1:02:00
getting the signals here that we are already over. So, um we’ll be here for another few minutes breaking down and
1:02:06
stuff like that if you guys want to talk to David. Uh and thank you all for coming. Go ahead, Nor.
1:02:11
Thank you to David. Ladies and gentlemen, people didn’t check out from an outside or fo
1:02:19
online.com that David just did a a very nice uh interview in that magazine. And
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in previous years, David actually got a monthly column. That’s right. He had a great column in
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that magazine. Eight years. Yeah. I did it for eight years. Wow. I did 100 articles.
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Some I believe in the old issues of FO. Yes. Yes, are available and they’re great
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anecdotes and stories and lots of lessons. So, I congratulate that. Thanks for pointing that out. Yeah.
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Thank you all.
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Hey, I’m Daniel Keller. Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button and join us each week for Insights and Sound.