Insights In Sound 178 – Robert Scovill at the Sphere, Las Vegas – S18 E8

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About the Sphere
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[Music]
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I’m here with Robert Scoville at the
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Sphere in Las Vegas.
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What can we say about this place that
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hasn’t already been said? I
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mean, it’s it’s kind of its own unique
0:48
thing here. I mean, this is unlike
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anything that’s I mean, that exists in
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the world today, really.
0:56
I
0:56
think it’s 48 speaker systems throughout
0:59
the the place and very high transducer
1:01
counts in those systems. So, yeah, it’s
1:03
it’s unique from that aspect. And then
1:05
on top of it, you’re doing object mixing
1:07
here as opposed to bus mixing.
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[Music]
1:15
And if that wasn’t enough, you’re mixing
1:17
in, as you know, I’ve been talking
1:18
about, you’re mixing in concave now as
1:19
opposed to convex.
1:22
It’s a lot. It’s a lot to think about.
1:25
We started working on this in January
1:27
and then got into the simulator kind of
1:29
midmay, which they they built here for
1:31
us in Vegas to be able to get in and do
1:33
some work cuz the the schedule is so
1:35
compressed here. You have very little
1:36
time once you get in the building to
1:38
actually work on what you’re doing.
1:40
Even with all of that time, I’m still I
1:42
still find myself modifying things,
1:44
readjusting, busting, readjusting
1:46
things. You know, you’re just learning
1:48
it kind of on the fly as you go. You
1:50
know, hopefully you don’t make too many
1:51
big mistakes in the beginning and you
1:53
can survive all those, you know.
1:54
I mean, you’ve got such a challenge here
1:56
in terms of just the the shape of the
1:59
room to begin with.
2:00
You know, the shape of the room, it
2:02
doesn’t really bother me. I I I mean, I
2:04
actually think this is my own hypothesis
2:07
here. I actually think you’re better off
2:09
mixing in concave in a in a round room
2:12
like this than you are trying to put in
2:14
convex into a round shape. You know,
2:17
it’s like like when we’ve gone into
2:19
domes and stuff and tried to do that
2:20
with a regular PA, it’s challenging,
2:22
man. I mean, we you can create some
2:24
echosure in those places, that’s kind of
2:25
mind-blowing. Here, you don’t really
2:28
have that, you know, like it’s not not
2:30
super echoey in here, which is kind of
2:32
weird. And the low the low frequency
2:34
impact of it is actually very well
2:36
behaved. I mean, it’s the the low end in
2:38
here, which is typically a problem in a
2:40
dome. I don’t seem to have that problem
2:42
here. You know,
2:44
if anything, I would guess you have more
2:45
of a high-end issue here.
2:47
You you can have and I think that’s the
2:49
result of a couple of things here. I
2:51
mean, none the least of which the the
2:53
propagation distances that we’re dealing
2:55
with here.
2:58
[Music]
2:58
[Applause]
3:01
[Music]
3:18
you know, I mean, we have these long
3:20
distances that any PA system is going to
3:22
be challenged to throw. And then on top
3:23
of it, you’re in a desert atmosphere,
3:26
you know, where it’s very low humidity.
3:29
you know, you’re a couple of inches of
3:31
mercury above sea level here, you know,
3:34
so, you know, it all kind of adds up and
3:36
it can make for a very challenging
3:38
environment. I It’s a dynamic
3:40
environment. I’ll say that, where, you
3:42
know, you get something where that it
3:44
sits in and you feel pretty good about
3:45
it and then get 18,000 people in here
3:47
huffing and puffing and you watch the
3:49
humid humidity go up about 10 12 points
3:51
and all of a sudden you’re on a
3:52
different PA system. You know, it’s like
3:54
woo.
3:56
[Music]
3:56
[Applause]
3:58
Guess are you ready?
3:59
What is the system here?
4:01
So, this is hollow plot. It’s all beam
4:03
forming PA and gosh, don’t ask me how
4:05
many transducers are in here. I mean,
4:07
it’s 100,000 and it’s crazy amount of
4:10
transducers within the cabinet
4:13
and it’s all kind of based on the
4:14
booming building,
4:17
you know, take one
4:19
set of PA, cover the entire room with
4:20
it, the next set, cover the entire room
4:22
with it, you know, right,
4:23
etc. So, you know, you are truly mixing
4:26
in
4:27
really an immersive environment there.
4:29
You know, a spatialized immersive
4:34
siter.
4:38
You obviously have to create your own
4:40
ambience in that sense. I mean, you’re
4:42
you’re playing with the reflections.
4:44
You’re you’re mapping stuff out to
4:45
wherever it’s supposed to be, right?
4:47
Well, in terms of pure sources. Yeah.
4:49
And you know that you where it gets kind
4:52
of strange and you know we’re still as
4:54
an industry very much in development in
4:56
terms of how we’re going to handle
4:59
spaces like this especially when we’re
5:01
talking about you know 48 speaker
5:02
sources here. You know there’s no 48.1
5:05
busing on any consoles you know I mean
5:07
you’re going to basically set up you
5:08
know those pathways and just be able to
5:10
address them in the situation you know
5:12
where you’re routing to all these
5:13
different places. You have to be careful
5:15
with it right and you have to be really
5:16
disciplined with it. you know, you’re
5:18
not really going to route to more than
5:19
one place at a time. Uh, so in that
5:22
aspect, it’s really object based. And if
5:24
you’re going to create any kind of
5:26
backward Z-axis on it, you kind of have
5:29
to do that reverberantly. Like you have
5:30
to do your own right
5:31
reverb to do that. You can move anything
5:33
forward in the Z.
5:35
No question. I mean, I put anything up
5:37
or out into the audience. But I if I
5:39
want to take uh objects in my mix and
5:42
move them back and create some space for
5:44
it, obviously I have to do that in the
5:46
console. don’t have to do that with
5:47
reverb processing,
5:48
right?
5:48
And you know, a lot of the reverb
5:49
processing that we have set up available
5:52
to us today, one, I can’t really bust to
5:54
it properly in terms of surround, I
5:57
don’t have multi- channelannel output
5:58
from the console to get into a multi
6:00
channel reverb.
6:01
Yeah.
6:01
And then on top of it, when I bring it
6:03
back and make it, you know, 5.1, 7.1,
6:06
9.1 reverb, then where do I place it in
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the space? You know, am I making pockets
6:11
of information? Are they doing music or
6:14
am I treating the whole space with that
6:15
reverb?
6:17
And that’s going to be different
6:18
depending on where you’re sitting in the
6:19
place, too.
6:19
Of course. Yeah, of course. But, you
6:21
know, I mean, that’s I I don’t worry as
6:23
much about that. I I think this does a a
6:25
much better job of giving a relative
6:29
audio performance for a bigger portion
6:31
of the audience than stereo does in a
6:33
close this size.
6:36
The question I have about that is
6:38
because you have so much height to play
6:40
with,
6:40
Yeah. Does that give you like different
6:42
leeway in that sense?
6:43
Yeah, it does. I mean, you I mean, it’s
6:45
it almost sounds cliche now, but but
6:47
it’s true. You know, you just kind of
6:49
take stereo and you throw it away when
6:51
you come into something like this,
6:52
right?
6:53
Now, it’s not to say that you don’t have
6:54
something wide. You can you can create
6:56
an incredibly wide soundsscape here. You
6:59
can also create a incredibly tall
7:00
soundsscape if you want to do it.
7:02
That’s the question because how
7:03
realistic can you stay, you know? I
7:06
mean, like stereo realism.
7:07
Well, yeah. Well, well, okay. So the the
7:09
classic definition of stereo used to be
7:12
that I’m going to hear it as if I’m in
7:14
if I’m listening to an orchestra. Yeah.
7:16
Right.
7:17
We don’t go there with that with this at
7:19
all, do we?
7:19
Well, no. I I would say this in terms of
7:22
being that kind of creating that kind of
7:23
real environment. You could do that here
7:26
way more effectively than you could with
7:27
the stereo.
7:28
I mean, through this kind of
7:29
soundsscape, you see a 60 piece
7:31
orchestr.
7:35
You know the the challenge with all of
7:37
that as we start to scale up in this
7:40
object base right this object based
7:42
immersive thing as we start to scale up
7:44
we run into some significant walls in
7:47
the physics of it right and it’s purely
7:49
because sound travels slow I mean sound
7:52
travels at the speed of sound
7:53
unfortunately
7:54
do we have any idea how big this space I
7:56
mean how much distance we’re talking
7:57
it’s
7:58
I think ground to ceiling it’s almost
7:59
300 ft
8:01
okay it’s enormous it’s enormous it’s
8:03
way bigger than it looks right now. I
8:05
guarantee you. I mean, we’re sitting one
8:07
thing like they’re watching TV and it’s
8:09
hundreds of feet away,
8:10
right? How how many seats do you know?
8:12
18,000.
8:13
This is what they called in Spinal Tap
8:15
the enorm.
8:19
So, where I was going with that is that,
Propagation
8:21
you know, because of propagation, right,
8:22
we have to be really careful because it
8:24
plays into two things. If we’re in
8:26
concave like sitting here in the center,
8:29
I I if I just took the standard approach
8:31
that we do with stereo, it’s like, oh,
8:32
I’m going to put one guitar player here,
8:34
one guitar player here. Wow, it sounds
8:36
fantastic. I mean, it’s just this
8:37
enormous thing.
8:38
Yeah. Yeah.
8:39
But if I go all the way out on the edges
8:41
now, because remember the the PA is in
8:43
the concave.
8:45
So this guy shows up on time over here,
8:47
but this guy shows up over here really
8:50
really late.
8:51
Oh yeah.
8:52
Right. Whereas if we’re in convex,
8:54
right? If we had a complex PA in here
8:56
and I put one guitar player over, they
8:58
never meet on the other sides.
9:01
Interesting.
9:01
Right. But they do. So you you just have
9:04
to be
9:05
like like I spend a lot of times when
9:08
I’m assigning and getting things in,
9:09
it’s like, okay, let’s go check this on
9:10
the edges and make sure everybody sounds
9:13
like they’re playing in the same band.
9:16
And the thing I’ve really felt fallen in
9:18
love with immediately is that unlike in
9:20
stereo where we’re doing bus mixing, you
9:23
know, and we’re and we have all the
9:24
instruments coming out all out of the
9:26
speakers at all times, right? We’re
9:28
always worried about frequency masking,
9:30
dynamic range, you know, trying to
9:32
create some depth to create separation
9:34
on instrumentation, especially in a
9:35
dense mix. It’s hard to create
9:37
separation.
9:38
Yeah,
9:39
that’s dead on easy here. You’re
9:41
sacrificing a little bit of impulse
9:42
there that we don’t have in stereo
9:44
because not everything’s arriving at the
9:45
same time or not. Right.
9:46
Well, one would think. Yeah. I mean,
9:49
well, it’s not true though. Yeah. It’s
9:51
covering like a tenth of a mile here.
9:53
Yeah. Yeah. Well, but you know, given
9:54
that instruments are coming out of
9:56
different parts of the room,
9:57
right? Exactly.
9:58
Depending on where you are, you won’t
10:00
have the same impulse. Uh but that’s it
10:03
feels like a good trade-off right now. I
10:05
it it was one I was really scared of
10:08
when we when I started thinking about
10:09
doing object mixing at this scale. I
10:11
thought, man, that’s going to do the
10:12
impulse of the music, you know, if we
10:14
start breaking stuff apart into a wide
10:16
situ. But it’s actually pretty good.
10:18
This is my own theory that I have going
10:20
with this that once you see that coupled
10:21
up with IMAG and video, especially IMAG
10:25
of the flares up on the screen when
10:27
they’re broken apart into the room, all
10:29
of a sudden your brain just kind of
10:30
goes, “That’s okay. I hear and see
10:32
everything right now. It’s it’s good.
10:33
That sounds good. Whereas if you’re just
10:35
listening, you might kind of go, I don’t
10:37
know.
10:39
[Music]
10:43
So, how does this differ from, let’s
10:45
say, at more channels for sure.
10:48
Okay.
10:49
I mean, like I said, it’s I mean, 48
10:52
speaker systems
10:54
in play to, you know, to be able to go
10:56
anywhere you want to go.
10:57
Yikes.
10:58
So, it’s not like 5.1 or 7.1,
11:00
right? Right. It’s 40 days 40 miles.
11:03
I mean, it’s set up to be like the
11:04
ultimate cinema experience. I mean, some
11:06
of the cinema stuff I’ve heard in here
11:07
is just absolutely mind-blowingly great.
11:11
So, how long did it take you to get your
11:12
head around this? I mean, months.
11:14
I’m still working on it. Still working
11:16
on it. I there is still like I even what
11:19
you kind of saw when I came in today
11:20
there were some routing things that I
11:22
was doing that
11:23
that seemed so h obvious in hindsight
11:25
but I I woke up you know kind of in the
11:27
middle of the night the other night
11:28
thinking right that’s why that’s
11:30
happening okay right hey fish this is
11:33
what we did I need to do it I need to
11:35
pull Dante from a different place there
11:37
not where we’re pulling it you know that
11:38
it’s reassuring to know that that even
11:40
after doing this for a long time you
11:41
still go through that you know
11:43
100% So,
11:52
so what’s your biggest challenge with
11:54
this gig as opposed to, you know, the
11:57
more standard stuff you’ve been doing
11:59
with this paint?
12:01
Well, I mean, honestly, I just think
12:04
keeping the tonality the of the PA
12:08
normalized given the different humidity
12:11
settings in here. I I’m sure my my tour
12:14
mates that sit here are just sick to
12:15
death of hearing me talk about it. Oh,
12:17
it was 42% tonight. It was just perfect.
12:19
You know, that kind of thing. You know,
12:20
what are you freaking whatever,
12:23
Mr. Wizard? You know,
12:24
right? Right.
12:24
Uh but that really is the whole game
12:26
because it affects game before feedback.
12:28
It affects the transition of top end
12:31
from the near field down on the floor
12:32
and the first balcony all the way to
12:34
back, you know. So,
12:36
especially the back.
12:36
Especially the back. Yeah.
12:37
And you know, it’s just one of those
12:39
things because everything is in that
12:40
field. If it’s really low humidity, kind
12:43
of like it’s going to be tonight,
12:45
it’s very easy to get it really sizzling
12:48
down front and not have it make it to
12:50
the back of your room.
12:55
[Music]
12:57
One of the luxuries of being here and
12:58
doing lots and lots of shows is that you
13:00
hear the same room under different
13:02
circumstances. Mhm.
13:04
Like I I’ve noticed it without question
13:06
like as the humidity gets up to about
13:07
30%. The back half of the room in terms
13:10
of echo and reverb just comes alive.
13:12
It’s like here it comes, here comes the
Research
13:13
room,
13:14
you know, because the audio is making it
13:16
back. That’s been kind of a fascinating
13:18
journey for me here to kind of actually
13:20
have the time here and then go back and
13:22
dig in and do some studying on it and,
13:24
you know, look up some things, do a
13:26
little bit of research and go, “Yeah,
13:28
absolutely. That’s what’s happening.”
13:29
It’s a sum total of stuff you’ve done
13:31
before, you know, like mixing at a
13:32
waterfront and stuff like that. It’s all
13:34
these different little things.
13:35
Well, I guess I can relate it to I mean,
13:38
I’ll give you this little story because
13:39
this this was probably the first time
13:41
that set this in motion for me where I
13:43
like, man, we need to pay attention to
13:45
this.
13:46
So, I was on Rush and Alex and I were
13:50
golfing. We were out at Olympic Park in
13:52
San Francisco, right?
13:54
And
13:56
this I mean absolute dense fog rolled in
13:59
on the course and they you know the horn
14:02
goes off and they ask everybody to stop
14:03
in position cuz you can’t see
Fog
14:05
see anything anywhere
14:06
20 ft in front of you you know.
14:08
Uhhuh.
14:08
I mean minutes ago we were looking at a
14:09
par three and then everybody’s down
14:11
there and then we can’t see. So we’re
14:13
sitting there and
14:15
both of us picked up on it at the same
14:17
time. And it was like all of a sudden it
14:18
was like somebody was standing right
14:20
here talking to us and it was the guys
14:23
that were 150 yards away down on the
14:25
green talking
14:27
but that fog that’s gas that fog carried
14:30
it right up to us.
14:31
I’m not kidding. It was we both stood
14:33
there just kind of going
14:35
wow man you know like that is some
14:38
school right there.
Shoreline
14:43
The next day we are at Shoreline doing
14:46
the show.
14:47
Oh, that’s a van, man.
14:49
Dry as hell for the day. Just so dry
14:51
during the day and rained late in the
14:54
afternoon.
14:56
And it was just like,
14:57
okay, that’s not the PA we s checked on.
15:00
And I know why right now, you know.
15:02
Wow.
15:02
I mean, it just it just kind of glued
15:04
together all these elements for, you
15:05
know, and I I never forgot it.
15:08
And, you know, I remember started
15:09
thinking things going that’s why sonar
15:10
looked so good.
15:18
What an audience.
15:19
But we’ve run into it before, you know,
Altitude
15:21
um, you know, doing festival shows and
15:24
stuff where you do it at altitude,
15:26
you know, where, you know, barometric
15:27
pressure goes way down, you know, where
15:29
there’s way less air molecules.
15:31
Yeah.
15:31
To drag sound along and it actually
15:33
sounds like sound slows down when you’re
15:34
at line. So you get altitude and
15:37
dryness. Now you stop trying to push the
15:40
PA through a wall.
15:45
That means
15:49
just like us, my band, my crew, and my
15:52
royal family. Just like us, all of you.
The Beatles
15:57
Now, I’m thinking back to uh we were
15:59
talking earlier about u the Beatles love
16:01
setup, you know, which you know, ancient
16:03
history in terms of impressive, right?
16:05
But I remember that one of the things
16:06
they had there that fascinated me was
16:08
they put speakers in the seatbacks. They
16:11
could localize certain components.
16:13
Yeah. They had here. I I’m using it on a
16:15
few places show. Yeah.
16:16
Oh, that’s going to be interesting.
16:17
Yeah. You know, you’re going to call
16:19
haptics or infrasound, whatever you
16:21
want.
16:21
Right. Right.
16:22
Yeah.
16:24
Special effects things that happen
16:25
during the show that are in the seats.
16:27
Couple of drum things that happen in the
16:28
seats from time to time. So, yes,
16:31
[Music]
16:33
man. You get to really play with a full
Drums and Bass
16:35
box of crayons.
16:35
You do it.
16:36
You do.
16:37
Like one of the things we’ve played with
16:39
and I I know for certain I’m going to do
16:41
this use this to this kind of lever next
16:45
time I’m in here is, you know, kind of
16:48
given the concept of the PA. I thought,
16:50
you know, I bet, you know, like being
16:53
able to localize drums would be really
16:56
easy, you know, like cuz I I have the
16:58
drums kit set up in the center of the PA
17:00
just don’t have it.
17:01
Yeah. Yeah,
17:02
but the drummer is actually offset stage
17:04
left. Maybe he’s off to the side.
17:06
Yeah, but that would be weird, wouldn’t
17:07
it?
17:07
Well, here’s the thing. You You might
17:09
think that.
17:10
Oh,
17:10
so I I’ve got some presets and I’m not
17:12
going to show it to you, but drums and
17:14
bass center,
17:15
drums and bass local and harmony is on
17:17
that side and keyboard’s on that side.
17:19
So, it’s actually put it all together.
17:21
So, I have it set up where if I want to
17:22
put the drums and the bass in their
17:24
position, I just touch that button and
17:26
they go there. If I want to put them
17:28
back in the center and just touch the
17:29
other button. So, I had a enough time to
17:32
play around with it when we first got in
17:34
here. And the thing that was really
17:36
really cool was
17:38
like down in the in the floor and in the
17:41
first first people under the balcony and
17:44
the first balcony like it completely
17:46
played that like it was like wow, man. I
17:49
mean, I’m like watching the drum kit and
17:51
it looks and sounds like the drums are
17:53
coming right from the drum kit. And you
17:55
know, I mean, there’s no bass rig on
17:57
stage or anything, but it’s like I’m
17:58
watching and hearing harmony over my
18:00
bass. It was startling how good it
18:01
worked. Now, it started to drift away a
18:04
little bit as you got away, you know, up
18:06
in the building. It didn’t have the same
18:08
sort of localized impact. I was
18:10
positively amazed at how good that
18:11
worked, especially like having localized
18:13
bass guitar like, and I’m talking full
18:16
frequency like bass and low end just
18:18
kind of went like this really
18:20
and moved over there. I was like, “Okay,
18:21
something there’s something really
18:23
really right about this.”
18:30
[Music]
Secret Weapon
18:32
So, you’re using the same uh the same
18:35
base setup for her that you use every
18:37
everywhere else, right?
18:40
Yeah. And that, you know, that whole
18:41
thing has served us really well here. I
18:43
mean,
18:43
I think it was one of our secret weapons
18:45
coming in here is
18:46
I would bet. Yeah.
18:46
Well, is that the entire band has been
18:48
on ears for years,
18:49
right? and you have to be on ears here.
18:52
There’s just not quite any way of
18:53
getting out of it. And you know, we’ve
18:54
worked on isolated guitar and bass rigs.
18:57
So, you know, they weren’t used to
18:58
having them on stage anyway. It’s just a
19:00
matter of getting out. So, it it that
19:02
part of it was really easy for us to
19:04
transition into this building in the
19:05
sport.
19:07
[Music]
19:16
It’s an amazing venue. It’s fun.
19:19
I I’m going to be fascinated to see what
19:21
they do with this as it grows, you know,
19:22
like, you know, as the PA starts to
19:24
develop, they get some, you know, some
19:25
better elements of the PA. I mean, I’m
19:27
sure it’s going to improve over time,
19:29
you know.
19:29
Yeah.
19:30
And, you know, it’s set up where, you
19:31
know, they they could in terms of the
19:33
boxes. I’m sure they could change it out
19:35
as they get to a next generation,
19:37
you know, box and DSPs potentially.
19:40
Yeah. Well, I say the Holot guys have
19:42
been give them some glowing reviews. So,
19:45
they’ve been fantastic. It just been
19:47
great to deal with even you kind of the
19:49
in-house audio guys Paul Freeman Eric
19:52
Hawkman with plot they’ve just been so
19:54
open and uh allowing us to do everything
19:57
that we want to do. It’s just been
19:59
really really a great experience.
20:01
Satellites watching up in the sky.
20:06
Well, that’s for all the world to know
20:09
what we do and where we go. Welcome to
20:12
the fish.
20:15
[Music]
20:20
Hey, I’m Daniel Keller. Don’t forget to
20:21
hit the subscribe button and join us
20:23
each week for Insights and Sound.